Navigating The Narrative Age for Business Impact with Frank Wolf

David Burnand: Hi and welcome to a brand new Aspire to Inspire podcast episode. My name is David Burnand from Staffbase.

Lottie Bazley: And I am Lottie Bazley Internal Communications Manager at Staffbase.

David Burnand: And we’re here today with Frank Wolf. Frank is a founder of Staffbase. He’s our Chief Strategy Officer. And, Frank also, though for the past year has been writing a book. So he’s actually now, a published author, of a book. And Frank, as part of this podcast, you’ve been interviewing people for the Aspire to Inspire podcast.

But today we’re going to switch things around and we’re going to talk a little bit about you and a little bit about the process that you’ve gone through over the past year and, and the book that you’ve been writing. And so we’re going to get into all of that and some of the things that you’ve learned along the way.

So, let’s switch things around and ask you a few questions for a change.

Frank Wolf: Great. Very, very exciting to be on the other side, and, yeah, talk about the book.

David Burnand: Yeah. Let’s see how you manage it. So it’s the poacher turned gamekeeper moment. So, Frank, tell us a little bit about yourself. Your background is, well, obviously we know each other pretty well, but your background for our listeners is really in marketing, but you’ve actually just flipped things around and become more and more curious over time around communications. And now you’ve written this book about narrative.

So tell us a bit about how all of that came about. And, you know, what motivated you and what got you to this point where you’ve written this book?

Frank Wolf: Yeah. Like, as you said, I’ve studied marketing, and, marketing is one of my big passions. And, on the other hand, when I started my career and started in consulting, I did a lot of projects around communication and also, things like collaboration, knowledge management, and so on. So, I’ve seen both worlds, and I’m very thankful for that because marketing can learn a lot from communications, but also the other way around. And I think that’s a big privilege.

And, the topic of the book is to some degree, also something that both areas sort of touch because narrative is something that’s around. And some of our listeners may hear this now more. People start to talk more about why we need a new narrative. And, what’s the narrative behind this? And we need to change a narrative. So it seems to be something like a hype topic. And that was very interesting for me to look behind it and say, what’s actually behind it. Is this something that’s impactful and important for communication? And I get out of this process with the book, and I’m very excited about the power of it. And, talking about it.

So, really excited that we have the chance to dive a bit deeper here.

Lottie Bazley: And I mean, we’ve kind of given the game away a bit by the number of times we’ve mentioned the word narrative already. But, Frank, the book is called The Narrative Age, and in it you really focus on the power of narratives to kind of inspire change and influence action, both for better and potentially sometimes for worse.

But really, let’s get back to the basics. So what is the difference between a story and a narrative?

Frank Wolf: I think one of the first questions that you could ask yourself and I asked myself, when we talk about this is why are some people great communicators and others not? And the interesting thing is, sometimes great communicators are not the ones who tell the best stories, have the best data or have the clearest messages or the clearest voice. It’s something else.

And I think what’s behind it is what we say is not what people hear. And what we say is not what people understand. It’s something in between. There’s a gap, and this gap is a big mystery in communication. And we could say whoever is a great communicator is able to bridge that gap. And if you think about it, communication in many ways is thought about as we send a message.

What are our statements? What are our stories? But what’s actually happening? Something in the mind of the audience. There a narrative is created, so they change their mind based on a narrative. So the first major insight for me was we are sending messages, we are sending information, we tell stories. But in the mind of the audience, something else happens. A narrative is created or changed.

And that’s the first big difference. So stories are sending, narratives is receiving what’s happening with the audience. And the second thing is stories and also information. These sort of are pieces that create a puzzle which is a narrative. So the narrative, some researchers say it’s a system of stories. So every story, to gives you one example. I remember also as part of the writing of the book. When the iPhone came out, 2007, the two of you, did you immediately buy the iPhone by chance?

Lottie Bazley: I was not.

David Burnand: Got the second one. I waited for one.

Frank Wolf: So I didn’t buy the iPhone because I just had bought a BlackBerry device and one that were you could surf in the internet and from today like horrible usability. And so on. Right? But I had a colleague who would buy, a big Apple fan, would buy all the new stuff on Apple. So he bought the iPhone 1. He’s the only one I knew, and he kept telling stories about, oh, this is so great. Here’s the iPhone and look at this and so on. So I heard of course in the media. So it was going through and some other companies saying it’s way too expensive. So there was a narrative building in my mind about the iPhone to say, oh, this is something special. It’s pretty expensive, but it seems to be really special.

And actually, one day I was driving in the car with this colleague back from a customer, and we were in a traffic jam, and we were both pulling out our phones and trying to find like what’s going on and how long is the jam. So Google Maps wasn’t there, or not really that good. So I experienced firsthand how fast he was with the iPhone and my BlackBerry, just like lost this by a long time, you know. So this was like the final nail in the coffin, like the last story that created this narrative in my mind. I need to have the iPhone 2. Like, I want to get rid of the BlackBerry. Here’s the iPhone. And I bought the number two, I waited for this. Like, so that’s a good example to say stories build over time the narratives in our mind. And the narrative then does a couple of things which are way more powerful than the story, for instance, to drive action. Right?

So I buy this iPhone now, this is a narrative that was created.

David Burnand: So what you’re basically saying is, that the narrative is kind of like a compound of multiple stories. Is that right?

Frank Wolf: That’s right. You could say like a definition that people sometimes use. It’s a meta story. So it’s something that goes over a long time, like a classic would be. You’ve seen a lot of movies about sharks being dangerous, and then you, at that point it creates a narrative in your mind, like, I shouldn’t if I’m somewhere where are sharks, I should be very careful when I go swimming. Right? That’s a narrative. That’s a pattern that’s created in our mind. And stories and narratives are influencing each other. Like stories build credibility for narrative. Right? If I hear a lot of people say, Paris is great, you should go there, it builds a narrative.

But on the other hand, a narrative also trains stories, right? Because once I have something in my mind and I believe something, I believe, the iPhone is great. Then I will hear stories in a different way. So if somebody tells me the iPhone is not good and, it’s not usable and so on, I will have a cognitive dissonance. Like my brain has stress, because I have two different beliefs. And in many ways, I will reject the new information. And, stay with my narrative because that makes me feel safe and good. And that’s such a powerful thing. That’s why it’s so hard to convince people about new information and new things, because all these existing narratives, in their mind, they really drive us and we try to have less stress. Right?

So that’s one of the reasons most powerful and maybe to add a third reason why it’s powerful is, narratives, in difference to stories, are about us. If somebody tells you a story, it’s their story, what happened to them. It can be emotional, it can be interesting, all of that. But it’s their story. But a narrative is about us. We could join it, right? If somebody tells me the iPhone is great, that’s his story. But my narrative is, I could buy one too, I could join the movement. I could also experience this, and then I could be part of it. I could buy a Gucci bag. I could go to Paris, you know, I could join this company. I could stop my career and live on the beach, and have a four-hour workweek or whatever. That’s all narratives. And the interesting thing, all big movements, wherever people are highly engaged, wherever people want to follow something that’s always a narrative, that’s never a story. That’s why it’s so interesting to build the mission and vision of a company and so on.

It’s all narratives that people follow. It’s not stories.

Lottie Bazley: I find that that second point that you made, Frank, is the bit that is the most, I guess, impactful to me when we’re talking about narratives that sort of change the way that you see the world. Right? If you have an idea that the iPhone is great and then someone tells you they hate the iPhone, you kind of think, oh, maybe I think a bit less of this person now, because the narrative for me is that iPhones are great and I find that super, super powerful.

And so I suppose now we understand the difference between stories and narratives and the kind of power of narratives. But why should communicators be thinking about narratives and not just stories?

Frank Wolf: I think for communications, what we see today is a lot of this is message-driven, like, what’s the thing I want to tell people? And an insight that  I learned, when I researched about the book is any story that you tell, the question is, will it resonate with my audience? It resonates if it fits the narrative, as I call it, landscape or map of the audience. So each of us, like we’ve grown up, we have a lot of narratives about us from our childhood, from the cultures we’ve been living in, from the city’s we’ve been living in and from our families and so on. And every story that I get, I go, it has to match my narrative landscape. And if it doesn’t fit in right, if somebody tells me a BlackBerry is great and I have, as you would call it, the personal narrative, that it’s cumbersome and hard to go to the internet, I don’t believe this anymore. Right? So the better as a communicator, the better you know the narrative map of your audience, the easier it is to tell a story. Right?

And now you could say, oh, well, that’s the easy thing. Like, we do audience research all the time. When you think about narratives, you discover they’re some very deep ones, like master narratives that are deeply embedded in our culture or deep narratives about a company. Right? Give you a very easy example. Let’s say you think about your employer brand and how people are onboarded in a company. Right? And you might be in a company where you say, our onboarding just sucks. It’s not good. Like people are thrown in and it’s all chaos. Like if you ask them after one month, they’ll all say nice team and so on. But everything else is like the first month is really tough, you know. Now think about doing a new initiative where you say we want to improve our onboarding. And if you tell the story in a way here we are. Onboarding is important. And here’s this new initiative. People will say, you are not really good at onboarding, like, what are you doing? And now imagine you do the same message, but you think, you know what, we are really bad at onboarding for many years and despite that, people love our culture if they’re here full time and so on. But onboarding is not our strength. But we want to be better. We want to improve. And here’s a new initiative. How are we going to do that? Just by knowing the narrative map of your audience, you could connect with it. People will agree with it, and then you can make your point.

That’s such a powerful thing.

David Burnand: So what you’re talking about basically is, if an organization wants to like, shape a narrative or change the narrative, then they have to kind of meet the audience where the audience is. There’s no point pretending that everything’s fine. We have to. And we often see it in the political world. That’s where the disconnect happens, where politicians won’t acknowledge that there’s a problem, so then when they want to move on to how they’ll solve it, they’ve kind of not actually acknowledged, you know, the audience is kind of blocked in a way. Is that right?

Frank Wolf: Absolutely. Like acknowledge the problem. First, find common ground first. If you look at a narrative map, there are different narratives. And first acknowledge that there are a lot of narratives from your audience that you will not be able to change. Right? Don’t tell somebody from the US that there’s no rags to riches. Like there’s no, with hard work you can achieve something and something that’s so deeply embedded like that. Sometimes people even talk about sacred narratives, right? Don’t touch. That’s what they believe in. And that’s not changeable. Focus on the things that you can change, and for change, start off with things where you find common ground.

Like a very easy example that I really love is about the gun discussion in the US. And you have a discussion about, and the term or narrative is gun control. Right? We need to control guns and take it away from people who could do bad things with that. And one major step towards, like, overcoming this polarization about guns is to say, let’s find a narrative and a narrative map of both sides that we can agree on. And whoever owns a gun and responsibly owns a gun like safety is a huge part of it. And the others as well. So it’s great to find on a narrative map something we can agree on and move from there and say, how can we find common ground again like the same as with values like family, values like growth. Like security, safety and so on.

So a lot of these common ground narratives are so powerful, they can be used to find a basis. That’s cool.

David Burnand: So tell us. We’ve talked a little bit about how you might engineer, if I think if that’s the right term, a narrative of kind of reset a narrative and how you might meet the minds of the audience. But a key topic that you write about is that narratives can actually be a kind of a competitive advantage.

And there are two terms that you mentioned in the book that will be great for you to explain to us because, you know, for us laypeople. So and those two, one is narrative moat and the other one is this idea of North Star narrative, which I think with your examples with if the US was about rags to riches, maybe you’ve just alluded to one of those things. Is that right? Can you just explain those two terms for us?

Frank Wolf: Yeah. Like I tried in the book to sort of because there’s so many narratives around. Right? And I tried for companies to find a way to break this down, to say, what are the key things narratives can do for a company or an organization? And I found two major concepts. One is, you think about and the term of the moat in the business is a very positive term about protecting yourself against, like competitors building a long lasting competitive advantage.

And that’s what people want to see, like, companies for a long time like Google or others have built a competitive moat. Right?

And in the book I use an example of the diamond industry, which has built like an epic moat, with narratives, for instance, the narrative that you have to give an engagement ring with a diamond in it, which is not always the case. But this narrative has created a whole industry. And moat is a couple of narratives. This can be about the brand, it can be about the company as an employer brand, can be about also the whole industry as being responsible, is getting a license to operate. These narratives build a moat that help you stay in the business, get more customers, charge higher prices, get more applications to get the people and employees you need, and also get the investors to believe in your long term future. That’s one thing. So build this.

And the second thing is you want and move your position somewhere else because there’s so much change transformation going on. We all know that. And we know as an organization we cannot be in the same place all the time. We need a destination. And in most narratives, pretty much where do we want to go? Like what’s our vision? What’s the future? We are working towards, and what’s our path? What’s the mission like? What are we contributing to this future? Right? So that’s why I’m saying the moat is here to protect where you are.

And, the North Star narrative is where your company wants to go.

Lottie Bazley: I really like the differentiation between the two there. I think it’s absolutely right. You know we need to have a direction but we also need to have that kind of protection almost. I’m going to put you on the spot here then, Frank. So I know you’ve done obviously a lot of research in the book and you pull out some case studies in there.

Could you give us an example of a company or a business or a narrative that has that really good kind of North Star narrative?

Frank Wolf: I use it in the book, for example, I picked it because I love this industry. That’s private space travel. I think that’s one of the most inspiring adventures humanity has right now. I picked it for another reason because I use two companies. One is SpaceX, and the other one is Blue Origin. Like SpaceX founded by a billionaire, Elon Musk and Blue Origin, also founded by a billionaire, Jeff Bezos. And you could say space travel is so easy to have a North Star narrative, like, what could go wrong, right? So if you want to land on the moon, that’s so great.

And, SpaceX really has a nice one. They say “making humanity multi-planetary.” So we all know, like the immediate goal is to land on Mars, but it’s not even landing on Mars to say, let’s be a space traveling civilization. That’s what this is all about. And Blue Origin has endorsed a narrative that says, “for the benefit of the Earth.” Like the name Blue Origin already says like it’s a focus on the Earth. Not so much about exploring. It’s like to put more focus on us back, and for the benefit of the Earth.

Now, if you are not very familiar with that, like I would say, what’s the problem that you’re trying to solve? Like what SpaceX is trying to solve is clear, we want to go there. But what is the benefit of the Earth? That’s already starting to be a challenge because, what’s the problem we are solving? Like space travel already does a lot for the benefit of the Earth. Like, it’s showing that there are good and bad North Stars, and there’s a whole discussion around this and mission, vision, and purpose and all that.

And for many years, I actually hated the topic because in my life as a consultant, and now at Staffbase for ten years, all the people I’ve met were pretty much confused by all this — mission statement, vision statement. Managers, line managers, nobody can repeat them like it’s it feels like a corporate bullshit exercise, to be very honest, in many cases. And the idea is if you understand narratives and storytelling and if you have the skills of communication, you have a lot of tools to make these booster narratives, which are sort of bringing mission and vision statement together to make them much better and much more impactful and impactful means people can understand and they care and they care, means I understand the problem that we want to solve. I understand the future that we want to go to, and I find this exciting. It fits my own narrative landscape. Right? And I want to follow along. And you see this with Blue Origin. And if you look at Glassdoor data, like how employees think about this company, it’s even work life balance. It’s much better at SpaceX. People at SpaceX are way more excited about this company, about the management, the leadership and so on.

And I think that’s an amazing example, about the power of most narratives. And one thing I try to do in the book that’s really important is if you are in communications, go into this topic like it needs great communicators. It needs an understanding of narratives to make this impactful. Like don’t leave this to the management or the strategy office or whatever. A big part of a strategy definition is telling the story, creating the narrative so people can buy it.

Lottie Bazley: And of course, having an understanding of where people are in that narrative.

Frank Wolf: Where people, like for space travel, one simple example, like a lot of space companies, started off with space tourism. And this hits a deep narrative of a lot of people that the wealth gap between the poor and the rich gets bigger and bigger, and space tourism is like in your face, like somebody said, the 0.00001% are now bored to death with all their money. Now they go space traveling, you know, and that’s really that’s important and something that SpaceX also does but avoids communication. They say we go to space. We have Starlink. We have internet for the whole world, what we bring out. It’s a totally different story. And that’s a story that Blue Origin has so much, what about space travel?

And that’s a lot of powerful stories to tell.

David Burnand: So by kind of making it multi-planetary who would not want to be multi-planetary. Right?

Frank Wolf: The point is like talking about deep narratives, like what’s the deepest narrative every human being has deep inside. I want to survive. Right? And the first thing when somebody says, I want to leave Earth and even maybe the solar system, it’s for me to say it might lead to some point. We all know the sun’s going to explode. Who didn’t know, I’m sorry. It’s going to happen in a couple of billion years. The sun’s going to explode. If we manage to leave our solar system, humanity will survive. That’s so, so powerful. And everyone like you can’t say it because modesty is invisible. But that’s why it feels so powerful.

Lottie Bazley: Even to your point earlier about gun laws, I guess that safety part is about the survival part as well, right? So we just need to be finding the survival mechanism in people.

Frank Wolf: Absolutely, and that’s a powerful thing because a lot of communicators and a lot of people in our society today, we are in a situation where they are so polarized, like, how can I even, it feels I cannot reach the other side with arguments anymore. And so on. Right? And that’s why it’s so cool to say, after all, we are all human beings.

And let’s look at the narrative and really like, listen, there’s this thing like don’t listen to reply, listen to understand. Right? Listen really to what the other side cares about, what they say. And then based on this, build your message.

David Burnand: So speaking of survival, though, like if you think about companies that, they have a reputation, they have a narrative that surrounds them that is maybe not the one that they want. How can they change those existing narratives? Like what do they start with?

Frank Wolf: One learning that I had in the book is there’s like two basic strategies, and one is, if you have a narrative that you’re not happy with, the obvious one is a counter narrative. So to say this is not true, and here’s the facts and so on. Right? And you will have to do this if the narrative is really like I say in the book, like if the narrative is linking to a very strong master narrative, give you an example from the book.

If you have Beyond Meat, so you have this whole new industry about, plant-based meat, and there’s a big lobby, lobbying against that. And they’ve built a narrative about that. This type of meat is not healthy, right? It’s ultra processed, and it’s just not healthy. So this is such a hard allegation and such a big master narrative about my personal health.

I have to counter this. I cannot say, let’s talk about other things. I have to prove that it’s wrong. And that’s why, like Beyond Meat and others like investing now millions in cooperating with health institutes and organizations. And they got a recommendation from the, I think, American Heart Association. They have to battle this head on. Right? The other thing is, if you have narratives which are there and you say, I find other narratives in the narrative map which are even more powerful. You can say, let’s go with an alternative narrative, right? This pretty much means you don’t even reply to the allegation. You don’t even do that, but you go in a different direction.

Like one example from the book is the, image campaign of the city of Berlin, like 10 or 20 years ago, the image was really bad around like dysfunctional city, like too many cars, everything’s broken and so on. Like, it’s kind of the worst western capital of the world sort of thing. And Berlin didn’t go against this because to be honest, to some degree it was true. Right? But they said, we are poor but sexy, right? They admitted it and they, and on the other hand, they said, but we are the coolest city on the planet. Like there’s so much going on here, and this was such an important and also successful narrative, which led to a lot of young people from around the world being the basis for a huge startup ecosystem now, so that’s a great example of, I don’t reply because I think there’s another, more powerful, narrative I can connect to.

David Burnand: It’s kind of like, look, don’t even, address the, the original allegation, but it’s almost like distraction therapy.

Frank Wolf: I don’t address it. And then like there’s one other quick example like Bavaria that I have also in the book, is this whole wind energy and like if you bring wind energy to the villages like you see that they say, oh, like it’s going to be noisy and so on. So now you can bet to a big campaign and say, oh, it’s not noisy and so on, and, but what they did in their research, they found that the villages like did major, major, major thing they cared about is independence. And they said we as a village, I as a mayor , I want to define where these things are going to be. I want to define, I want to get the money from it, I want to spend the money on schools, on our sports equipment, on whatever I want to do. Right?

So they linked this to independence, and they said, if you move now, if you move before the big corporations come in and force you to, you will be independent. It will be to your benefit. So they said this was way more important than the noise part of it. They kept it out and they said like where is more impact? And I think you can use that for almost all change projects. You have a company to say, what are the real drivers? What do people really care about? How can I connect this new change effort to this or even to the past, to our identity, to sort of look, there’s a narrative this been, like this from the beginning. Let’s go back to our roots. Right? So a lot of the how you frame the change is, there’s a lot of great lessons out of this whole narrative research.

Lottie Bazley: And I think one of one of the terms that we talk about a bit, or that you talk about, a bit in the book, is this kind of polarized world. And I suppose it’s about finding that real kind of connection that everyone has in common in a very polarized world that, you know, you can help bring people that feel very differently about things together on a kind of common understanding.

Frank Wolf: Absolutely. That was also for me, like a big, big insight and a big like, as part of the book, we also have a couple of like global master narratives. It’s pretty much in the book. A map where we put in some narratives from different countries. Like in India, you have karma as a narrative, or in Asia face culture and so on. And once you see this map, you cannot avoid this a-ha moment. Like you say, oh wow. Like, this is you really feel this, that it’s a different culture. And the more you dive into this different culture, the better you will be at communicating and understanding what’s going on. And one of the big things of these deep narratives, master narratives, is they are invisible.

We don’t know that we have them, right? And that’s the  power. Like I say, it’s hidden in plain sight. Right? That’s why they’re powerful.

Lottie Bazley: I love that you talk about a-ha moments there. Sorry, David. So I had a quick skim because we’ve had a sneak peek of the book, internally at Staffbase. So I was having a quick look yesterday and already saw a few moments for me. And I think one of the things that I really like about it is that you use kind of real-world examples to talk about kind of the concept of narratives. There are some real, tangible things that really kind of helped me understand, like, oh, okay, this is what we’re talking about when we’re talking about narratives. But Frank, again, the book itself, I guess if there were three things that you would want people to take away from the book, what would those three things be?

Frank Wolf: I think the first one is, something we talked about here is this, hidden in plain sight, this understanding of what is a narrative, how is it different from a story and just understanding the whole, like the basics of what we just discussed. I think if you’re a communicator right now, that’s a must-have to be a better communicator. That’s so powerful, that’s at least my opinion. And I’m really looking forward to the discussion, the feedback from the community. What I hear from early feedback is exactly that. So that’s number one.

Number two is I think if you ask communicators what they want to do in the future, most of them say we want to be more strategic, less-day to day, all this hassle other people giving us tasks. We want to define our agenda. We want to have a communications strategy and narratives are an amazing way to build this communication strategy. So don’t think about topics or key messages that you want to send out. I argue in the book you should think communication from reputation. So how do you want to appear as a company, as an organization in the mind of your audience? Which audience do you have? How do you want to shape reputation and narrative shape reputation? So define the narratives that you want to build over time. It’s not over months. It’s over years. What are the key narratives you want to build? Because this will build this competitive moat, this narrative moat that’s so important. That’s the second one. So to try to think about this in a strategy. Which audience do you have? How do you want to shape reputation? And narratives shape reputation. So define the narratives that you want to build over time. It’s not over months. It’s over years. What are the key narratives you want to build? Because this will build this competitive moat, this narrative moat that’s so important. That’s the second one to try to think about in this strategy.

And the third one is, and now my marketing mind comes back again, is if you look at this, communications needs a way to step up in what we’re doing today, like in terms of our processes, in terms of, for instance, integrated communication. So we don’t think about internal, like a silo, and external comms like a silo. All of this needs to be integrated. And, you need to think in narratives and always say, how are what we doing paying into our key narratives? And if things are not paying into that, like, should we even do that?

And understanding what are the tools and processes in place. Part of the tools is, that you need some sort of understanding and platform to say, what are the narratives that we want to drive? And this individual single message that I’m sending out, how does it pay into this? Does it even fit to the narratives? Will it fit to what the audience is saying? And by the way, without giving too much here, what’s happening with AI right now with these large language models, they are amazingly good at understanding it and narratives and defining them and helping comms to also say, think about your narratives like you got to send this out to Japanese, workers in your Japanese plant.

There might be a misunderstanding here. Five years ago. Unthinkable. Today that’s what technology, what AI is really capable of doing. And we think that’s really exciting because at the end, as I said in the beginning, the core competence of communication is to bridge that gap from what I’m saying is not what people understand. And if we can support this with technology, then even better.

David Burnand: So most importantly, Frank, you know, when is this book being published? Where can people find it? And, how can how can they get hold of it?

Frank Wolf: The book is published on April 26th, 2024. They can find it on Amazon. So if you go to Amazon and look for “The Narrative Age,” you’ll find the book. Will have a paperback, a hardcover, there is a Kindle version of the book, and there will also be an audiobook.

The audiobook will launch in May. So it’s coming a bit later, available worldwide. And, yeah, we are very excited for it to launch.

David Burnand: Amazing. Well, Frank, thank you so much for taking the time out to join us and kind of educate us all on this amazing topic. I think we’re all learning a lot. And it’s a really interesting time, as you say. It’s kind of this, it’s a potentially, a moment, an inflection point for communications.

If we can all kind of grasp this concept of narratives, and I’m really learning how to leverage it to kind of raise our game and or be more strategic in how we approach all of our communications campaigns and strategies. So thanks for doing it.

Lottie Bazley: Thank you so much, Frank.

Frank Wolf: Thank you. Thanks for having me.