From Buzzwords to Behavior: Building a Culture That Lives Its Values

Emma Fischer: Hi everybody, and welcome to the You’ve Got Comms Podcast, the show for internal communicators shaping the future of work. I’m your host, Staffbase Content Marketing Manager, Emma Fischer, and today we’re diving into a topic that is talked about all of the time, but I’m not sure the conversation is always held properly. And this is company values.

You’ve seen them. A lot of people consider them “those five words that are up on your website,” but how often is that actually lived throughout a company’s culture? To help us unpack this topic today and discover what real behavior drives spreading value, I have Ann Melinger. Ann is a long-time culture strategist, communications leader, and the CEO of bink., formerly known as Brilliant Ink. I know we get a lot of our resources from that. So I’m really excited to have you on because Ann has worked with organizations big and small to turn values into more than just buzzwords. So I want to get started right away and I would love to hear about bink’s core company values.

Ann Melinger: Awesome. Well, thank you for inviting me to talk about this. It is definitely my favorite topic, and I am really proud of our core values. We definitely walk the talk, and our values really are not just internal mantras. They’re something that we really live and breathe by every day. So we have three core values, which is a good rule of thumb. We typically say you should have no more than three to five.

Ours are “Be human,” “Lead the way,” and “Stay curious.” That really means we treat people like people first. We always push for progress, both within ourselves and on behalf of our clients and we embrace learning, even when it is sometimes messy.

Emma Fischer: I love those and I love that “Be human” is the first one. It really sets the stage for what matters the most.

Ann Melinger: Absolutely.

Emma Fischer: I’m curious, was that your values from the start, or did they evolve over the years?

Ann Melinger: Yes, this company has been around since 2008, and our values have evolved over the years. This particular set of core values we co-created as a team. It was a time of real reflection. After we had grown, we had added a lot of new people, and we really needed to clarify who we’re becoming. That’s, again, something we advise companies on. If you’ve gone through a period of growth or rapid change, or a merger or an acquisition, it’s really important to take the step back and really reflect on who you are and who you want to be.

And so again, we co-created them as a team because we really feel like we need to do for ourselves what we do for our clients. And what we say to our clients is that your values have to reflect both what your leaders want and believe are the priorities, but also what your people feel and experience day-to-day. And so, a lot of times, actually, when we go into work on core values with a client, we say, “We’re not creating core values, we’re uncovering your core values, because they already exist.” And it’s something that is really important to us. It’s also something that is really infused throughout our day-to-day experience. It’s how we hire people. It’s how we give feedback. It’s how we celebrate each other. It’s how we decide who we’re going to work with, what kinds of clients we want to partner with. So it really is a part of all the day-to-day decisions that we make.

Emma Fischer: I really love that, especially how you mentioned that the people are involved in the process of creating the core company values. I think that is absolutely essential. But have you ever seen a moment over the years where the core values were tested at any point?

Ann Melinger: Yes, I think that’s definitely something that every company goes through. I think they’re really put to the test in those hard moments, right? That’s when core values are really put to the test. I think more broadly, when we look at other companies, I think one of the moments when they’re really put to the test is when you have to do layoffs or someone’s leaving. And I think that’s a moment when organizations can often really falter. They can lean on HR speak and legal speak. “We have to do it this way by the book.” And it’s really important to treat people, as our value says, as humans. And so anytime we have to make a hard decision around parting ways with somebody, it’s always done with deep humanity and something that we think about, “Okay, how do we want to send somebody out into the world and how do we want people that are staying to feel?”

So again, whether that’s somebody that is moving on to another company, we always send people off with support and well wishes and the guarantee that we’re going to support them after they’re gone, I think that’s just a really important way that values can show up. And unfortunately, we’ve seen a lot of really public examples of when companies get that wrong, where they claim to be really caring about their people and then they call a Zoom call and lay off 900 people all at once, or they just shut off everyone’s access in the middle of the night. Those are examples of the most stark concrete example of your values not matching how you’re showing up.

Emma Fischer: I know. I had a podcast recording. I wasn’t the host, but for our other podcasts, “Aspire to Inspire.” This woman, Pia Frey, she’s a CEO, she brought up that if a company ever says, “We’re all a family here,” don’t listen to them because you don’t fire your family members. You’re only a family until something gets hard. So I love also your points about the HR speak, because for me, nothing is more painful in those big scandals than when they can’t just say, “Hey, we’re so like happy to have had you, but this is the reason.” Instead it’s this all corporate speak and that’s so painful to witness.

Ann Melinger: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Emma Fischer: So moving on, I’d like to switch the topic a little bit and talk on the strategies and tactics. So what do you think is one red flag you would notice when someone is preaching company values, but it doesn’t feel authentic?

Ann Melinger: I mean there’s a couple. The most obvious one is whether or not people actually know and feel connected to the values. So one of the litmus tests that I use sometimes is I’ll say to people, “Okay, if you randomly pulled 10 employees and you ask them if they know and feel connected to your company values, how many would actually say yes?” And that’s often met with this moment of panic. I can confidently say every single employee at bink. would know and feel connected to the company values and I think that’s something that’s really important. A lot of times, that’s, for me, a really clear indicator of whether or not they’re true core values or they’re like wallpaper values, is one of the ways we refer to that. If you have too many, that can often be the case, that people don’t know. I hate to take a dig at any one company, but I did recently see Amazon’s core principles. They don’t call them values; they call them principles. They have 16 of them. And it’s like, “Ooh, if you have 16, how can you really, as an employee, understand them, feel connected to them?” And they even had videos from the CEO explaining them, and the CEO saying, “These principles are very nuanced, and they can be challenging to apply.” It’s like, “Ooh.” Right away, that feels like a red flag. If you’re saying it’s nuanced and challenging, then that may not be the ideal core value.

Emma Fischer: Yeah, I can multitask, but if I’m trying to consider 16 different values and it waters it down at one point, like, “Well, what do you value the most if it’s everything?” I think we all value everything, but I think focusing in on about three things is really strong.

Ann Melinger: Absolutely. And I think a lot of times leaders fall into this trap of like, “If it doesn’t show up in our core values, it means we don’t care about it.” And that’s just not true. Your core values, that’s why a lot of times when we’re doing this work with clients, we spend a lot of time really educating you on “What do we mean by core values?” It has to be core to who you are. It has to be simple, clear, differentiated.

Please, for the love of God, do not use the word “integrity” or “innovation,” these words that are used by every company, and they are not differentiated whatsoever. It’s really important to think about “What do you mean by core values?” Because if you have 16 of them or 20 of them or 11 of them, it’s probably not really truly core. You’re just trying to get everything in there like it’s the junk drawer.

Emma Fischer: Yeah. My team came across a LinkedIn article recently, and somebody wrote words that we have to eliminate. It’s like saying integrity all the time, or saying “unlock the potential.” And for my company, we talk about inspiration, but we realized maybe we shouldn’t say “inspire” so often we have to select when we use it for emphasis, even though it’s something that we imply through everything.

Ann Melinger: Absolutely. And words matter. I mean we’re communicators. We understand that and words matter. And that’s not to dismiss the importance of acting with integrity. That’s obviously really important. And again, it goes back to, okay, just because it’s not in your core values, doesn’t mean you don’t care about it. You may care about it, put it in your code of conduct. That’s another place where you can really document what matters. It’s not a core value. It is something that you care about. So I think making those distinctions is a really important part of this process.

Emma Fischer: I think that was a super important thing to bring up because, like you said, it’s an active document, someone’s onboarding document, or the employee resource guide. If that is all clear, and it’s a bit silly that people think, “Oh, it’s just these three things.”

Ann Melinger: Right, right. Exactly. Exactly.

Emma Fischer: So when it comes to bringing these core values to workers, what role does being in the office make when it comes to embodying them compared to, let’s say, a hybrid worker or someone who’s fully remote?

Ann Melinger: Yeah, I think it’s interesting. This comes up a lot right now, especially as companies are talking about, we have more hybrid workers, we have more remote workers. The fact is that this has been an issue since long before COVID. Even before the pandemic, we had employees that were in the headquarters, that were in a field position, and there were often differences in how culture was experienced.

I think what I actually love about this moment is that it really forces companies to be very intentional, right? Because being in an office can certainly amplify culture. It can’t create culture on its own, but it certainly can amplify it. It can help to accelerate certain things. But when you have people that are in office, sometimes they’re remote, sometimes they’re in the office, it forces you to be really clear. And I think that’s the thing that this moment calls for more than anything is that the companies really need to get clear on “What is the definition of culture and values?”

And if you’re not clear on that, it doesn’t matter if everyone’s in the office. Honestly, if you are not crystal clear on what kind of culture it is you want to have and whether or not you’ve clearly identified what those core values are that underlie the culture, it really doesn’t matter if people are in an office or out of an office.

Emma Fischer: I think that’s a great point because another thing we’ve seen discussed a lot is a lot of people want companies to take a stance on things publicly, so this is the reputation of the company, and that’s something that’s reflected to all workers. What do you think about that, the line between staying silent?

Ann Melinger: I think it’s such a hard question, and it’s gotten increasingly more complex. And I think I’ll give the classic consultant answer, which is, it depends, but it’s all the more reason. It really depends on the company and your industry and the mood of your leadership, and how regulated your industry is, and what you’re allowed to say and do. But it goes back to this idea that you have to clearly define, start by defining what our values are.

If you haven’t done that basic foundational work, then you’re not going to be able to answer those hard questions of, “Okay, well, what does this mean when? How will our values show up when we’re faced with this thing or this new policy that really goes against what we believe? Are we going to speak up about it?” You’ve got to start by answering those basic fundamental questions first.

Emma Fischer: I think that’s wonderful because if companies want to be like a leadership, I think that’s perfect. For your company “Be curious,” I assume everyone’s eager to embrace AI or try out some new things. So I love that one, especially. Right now, I’m going to ask you a quick-fire round of questions because we have been thinking about a lot of comms topics. So first one, what is one comms trend that excites you right now? 

Ann Melinger: I have to say I’m a big fan of AI, but specifically about using AI to personalize communications. I think that’s a trend that is picking up momentum in our space, and I’m really happy that it is. I think it can allow us to do a lot more, a lot more quickly and easily.

Emma Fischer: And on the flip side, what’s one trend that scares you at the moment?

Ann Melinger: I think it’s also AI, and I think the fact that leadership hasn’t necessarily understood that AI isn’t just a shortcut. It’s not a productivity tool. It’s actually a cultural mindset shift, and it scares me that leaders aren’t necessarily viewing it that way.

Emma Fischer: Oh, that’s a great line right there. I think that’s wonderful. Now, here’s one that might be hard for you. If you could only use one social media platform for the rest of the year for employee engagement, which would you choose?

Ann Melinger: It’s a really tricky one, and again, I’m going to lean on my “it depends” answer. I mean if it was just me personally, I would probably say Instagram because I love consuming media and memes, and I’m a huge fan of AI-generated videos. They crack me up. So if I personally had to choose for myself, I would say just communicate everything to me via memes and AI-generated videos on Instagram.

But I think the real answer to that question is, it just totally depends. There isn’t one right platform. It really depends on the context of the organization, and it depends on your company, what works for you, what’s happening inside, but I think it is a matter of listening to your people and finding out what resonates with them and then really leaning heavily on those channels and platforms.

Emma Fischer: I love that. And now, a little bit on the spot again. Could you think of a really good corporate value that you’ve heard, and the one that you heard, and you were like, “Hmm, that one’s not as effective,” without calling anyone out?

Ann Melinger: That’s a great question. I have to say my personal favorite is, “Stay curious.” That’s one of our core values, but I think it really speaks to a growth mindset. And I think it can apply in so many different ways around our own personal growth, helping our clients grow, helping our team grow. So that’s one that really resonates with me. I also really love when I see core values that are a little more cheeky, again, that has to really fit with your organization.

Every once in a while, you see a company throw in curse words. Atlassian, I know they have in their core values, “Don’t F the customer.” And I just think that tells you a lot about who they are. It’s just a few words, but it says so much. And I think that’s really powerful. I think the worst one, again, for me is integrity. It’s so overused and it’s so basic, and it’s largely meaningless. And I just think if your people aren’t coming through the front door with integrity, then I don’t think they should be in the front door, period.

Emma Fischer: I was going to say the same thing. Nobody ever has to write, “Don’t steal from the company” or something as a value. This part’s implied. We want to hire people with integrity. I like that a lot.

Ann Melinger: Right? Exactly. Exactly. “Don’t cheat, lie, or steal.” I shouldn’t have to put that in my core values, right?

Emma Fischer: “Be nice to your coworkers.” Yes.

Ann Melinger: Right. “Don’t punch your neighbor in the face.”

Emma Fischer: Exactly. I love this. All right. So speaking of this, let’s shift to the employee experience. So do you think that value alignment should influence recognition or even advancement when it comes to promotions?

Ann Melinger: I do. I’m a very firm believer. I often will say to companies, to me, the absolute gold standard in doing this work is to define your values, break them down into clearly defined behaviors, and then pull them all the way through to core competencies. And use those core competencies to promote advancement, to make decisions about who gets promoted, and who gets compensated in what way. That is the best, most powerful way to really bring your values to life is to pull them all the way through to compensation decisions. You have to make it matter. So yes, to me. Now, I think recognition is probably one of the easiest ways to start. Standing up a values-based recognition program is something pretty quick and simple. I consider that low-hanging fruit, and I think that’s something that any company, wherever they are on this journey, should be considering is just create a simple shout-out program that when people shout out their colleagues, they have to do it tied to a company value. Definitely start there. If you want to reach for the gold standard, pull it through to your competencies and ultimately to your promotion and compensation practices.

Emma Fischer: I love that. We have a Kudos Board in the company app, so people can give acknowledgement to each other, then within the departments as well.

Ann Melinger: Yeah, exactly.

Emma Fischer: What role does internal comms play in helping to shape this narrative?

Ann Melinger: I think one of the biggest roles that internal comms plays is that we are storytellers for the organization, right? We are the ones who can really bring to life those values-aligned behaviors in action. Storytelling is, always has been, always will be the most powerful way to build engagement. And so we have an opportunity and a responsibility to elevate those examples. We need to demonstrate in action, “This is what staying curious looks like. This is what being human looks like,” and really share and amplify those stories, and to really make sure that they’re showing up throughout the employee experience. So it’s not just about publishing stories on the intranet; it’s also about actually looking across the entire employee experience and saying, “Hmm, I wonder if there’s an opportunity in our onboarding to do a better job elevating our values, or in our recognition program,” as we were just discussing, we don’t always own every component of the employee journey, but I’m a firm believer that we have a responsibility to ask those questions and look for those opportunities.

Emma Fischer: I think that’s really fantastic, because, well, one issue is that, especially in internal communication, there’s always this ask, “Can you prove the impact you’ve had?” So are there ways that you’ve discovered to measure whether the values are working? I know you mentioned, if you ask 10 people, the easiest one, and 5 of them have no idea, this is a pretty good indicator.

Ann Melinger: Yeah, it’s true. Yeah, I mean there’s no one way that you can measure it. There are certainly ways within surveys that you can ask specific questions. We’ve worked really hard. Our research team has a lot of really thoughtful questions around values that you can weave into surveys. It’s not just about knowing them, but it’s also understanding them. But I think it is also looking at behavior and how the values are showing up in the tough moments. You know, we often say that a person’s true character shows up in times of crisis, and it’s very true, a company’s true character and true culture, and values show up in a crisis. So again, it’s our job to sit back and look at different circumstances and ask ourselves, “Is this aligned with the values that we want?” And that’s not something that you can just pick up in a survey. That’s something that you really have to look at and monitor and speak up about over time.

Emma Fischer: I love that. I was just saying, if you have a value and times are easy, that’s one thing, but the real test is if times are difficult and you have a value, then what happens during those times? That’s the real . . . and I think what you brought up, too, is that it’s about the people living the values, but also the company overall has to reflect that, or else you can’t really expect the people to live it if the company isn’t projecting that.

Ann Melinger: Exactly, exactly.

Emma Fischer: So let’s switch things up again and do like a very mini brainstorm. I know you have really fabulous company values, but let’s say, pretend you had no company values at this point. How would you get started crafting that with your team?

Ann Melinger: Yeah, it’s a great question. A lot of times, what we do is we do start at the top. We’ll sit down with senior leaders and really ask them some pointed questions about “What does good look like?” A lot of times, when we’re trying to uncover core values, we’ll actually start with the behaviors. So we’ll ask really pointed questions around, “Share examples,” it goes back to storytelling, “share stories of a time when an employee did something that you really thought, ‘Wow, that’s the behavior I want to clone. I want more of that. I want that person doing more of those things. If I could repeat that all throughout the organization, we would be so successful.’”

And leaders have those examples. You just have to make the time and the space for them to think about it. A lot of times, it is actually backing out from the behaviors that you want to see, and that can lead to the values. So that’s one way to start. It is also super important to engage your employees and to work with them to sort of pressure-test. For example, we worked with a client once that had a value called accountability. And that word is fine. That’s definitely something that people feel a sense of. “I want to have a personal sense of accountability in my work.” But when we dug into it and we talked to employees, they felt a certain kind of way about the word “accountability.” It was making them feel like, “This is a little “Big Brothery.” It makes me feel like you don’t trust me.” And that wasn’t what leadership was intending. What leadership was really intending is like, “We take ownership.” And so, we wouldn’t have necessarily understood that that word had that particular feeling for employees if we hadn’t actually sat down and talked to them and really listened and dug in. And again, the intention is the same, but changing, just simply, from “accountability” to “We take ownership” goes from this top-down attitude to something far more collaborative with the same intention and a better outcome.

Emma Fischer: Oh, I love this. I’m a really big advocate of how little tiny words can imply completely different things. And I had the opportunity, Frank Wolf in our company, he wrote the book, “The Narrative Age,” and he really talked a lot about, it doesn’t matter what message you’re saying if that’s not the message being received. And as a writer, I always think the most successful I’ve ever written is if the person reading it completely knows what I’m saying.

And for someone poetic or something in my personal writing, I’m like, “No, it doesn’t matter.” It really clarified to me that person has to understand it. And I think that’s great, the difference between ownership and accountability.

Ann Melinger: Exactly. No, words matter. I love the book “The Narrative Age”. I think that words, again, we’re communicators and we know how to be really clear and succinct and direct, and saying things like, “Tell the truth” instead of just integrity can really . . . it carries a very different meaning. “Be human” carries a real meaning to it, and it’s simple. But again, I think it really has to match the vibe and tone of your company. I love when you see a core value and it just gives you a picture of what that company is like. I think that’s when you really nail it, that it’s not just a word that any other company might use, but it’s a phrase that is clear and clearly aligned with who that company is.

Emma Fischer: That’s why I really love “Be curious.” I was thinking, one time I looked up Zappos, the shoe shipping brand, and they had something, it was either “Be curious” or like, “Have wonder.” They had very playful, but very strongly worded. I was like, “I have a really positive feeling about this company so much.” Now I live in Germany and can’t use Zappos. I was like, “But I really liked that, what it said about them.”

Ann Melinger: Yeah, and it conveys so much. Zappos is a great example. Their values are fantastic. They have a lot of them, but I sort of give them a pass because they are so differentiated, and they really do, they convey a lot about the company, and a truly powerful set of core values is when we, as customers of Zappos, know what they are and appreciate and actually favor that brand because of their core values and how they show up in the way that they engage with us as customers, and how we know they’re engaging with their employees. I think that is like the most powerful example of core values in action.

Emma Fischer: The other one I really like, I think it’s Nike, and they have something like, “Be an athlete,” but it says, if you have a body, you’re an athlete, all of us are in some way. And to me, that makes it feel a lot more inclusive.

Ann Melinger: Exactly.

Emma Fischer: So then, if we flip it for a second, let’s say the values are misaligned. It’s something that people aren’t sitting really well with. Do you think that internal communicators have a responsibility to come in and help with this? 

Ann Melinger: I absolutely do. I’m a big believer that as communicators, we have a responsibility to be a mirror and to use the very unique place that we sit within an organization. We have a privilege of seeing across the entire enterprise, of hearing perspectives across the enterprise. And with that unique perspective, I believe we have a responsibility to speak up and to share when we see that things are out of alignment. It takes a moment of bravery, but it’s definitely something that can help to elevate our influence. And I think a lot of times, people get a little overwhelmed. It’s like, “This can sound very big and lofty, core values, culture. I’m just a communicator. How can I possibly influence that?” And, you know, when I hear that objection, I like to challenge it by saying, “Just what’s one thing that you can do? What is one small step that you can take, one conversation you can have, one challenge that you can offer to move the needle?”

Because you don’t have to change everything overnight, but if you do make one small incremental change, that’s better than where we are today. So I really try to push people to use that perspective and influence to help shape the culture and values of an organization.

Emma Fischer: I love that you acknowledge that it could be like a little bit scary at first, but with that moment of bravery, because I think it’s one thing if people are just always agreeing with something, but if you notice something is out of alignment and it keeps coming up, to be able to bring that up is really important. We have AMAs so people can write in, and it’s on our company app. And if something feels wrong, I always really admire if somebody puts their name on it, and then we can all see, they asked what everyone was thinking, and it’s a pretty brave moment.

Ann Melinger: Absolutely. And I think, as communicators, we have a responsibility to our leaders to take those bold and brave moments and to do our best. We’re not always going to be able to do everything and change everything. I work with enough bold and brave communicators to know you’re out there fighting the good fight, and it doesn’t always work. But again, at the very least, if we’re able to make incremental shifts, we are at least improving things from where they are today.

Emma Fischer: I love that so much. Could you think right now of an example where it was kind of challenging to help implement the values, and is there a way you can recommend people navigating that?

Ann Melinger: Yeah, I think it’s often challenging. I think the thing that sometimes trips up the process the most is when leaders get involved, sort of at the last minute. And so you’ve done all this work to uncover core values, and you’ve come down with this very succinct list, and they’re great words, and they’re very clear. And then leadership team comes in and is like, “No, but what about this? What about that? We need to throw in this. We’ve got to go get that in there. What about this word? I like this better.”
And so one of the things that we say from the very beginning, from the very outset of this process, you have to get very clear on “Who are the key stakeholders that need to have a voice in this?” and engage them from the start. Engage them early, take them through the process that you’re going through, and make it clear, “This is where we’re going to be taking in leader perspectives. This is where we’re going to layer in employee perspectives.

This is where you’ll have an opportunity to give a final review. But by the time we get to Phase 3, we’re not going to be doing big, massive revisions.” 

And so being really clear about that from the very beginning, it sounds basic, but it is where values go to die, is when they are reviewed by the leadership committee at the very end of the process, and a lot of the work that has been done can just go completely to waste. So we really try to say, “Think of the end at the beginning and set those expectations early so that you don’t run into that problem down the road.”

Emma Fischer: I love that. I think that a lot of internal communicators can relate to that as well.

Ann Melinger: Absolutely.

Emma Fischer: Well, this has been a really, really wonderful conversation. We covered so much, but is there anything else that you think I left out that you’d like to comment on when it comes to core values?

Ann Melinger: No, I think it goes back to starting small. Definitely, it can feel overwhelming, but again, like I said, starting with one thing that is contradicting your values within the organization and trying to tell that story, a lot of times, just starting can get momentum going. And so that is the thing where we really need to make sure that we’re being brave and we’re being bold and that we’re encouraging leaders to listen. You know, we have a real skill. This is something that AI cannot replace yet. We have a real skill to approach leaders and to say with empathy and with heart, “Look, we want to elevate this concern to you. We want to share this. We want to present it to you in a way that isn’t going to make you feel defensive.” We’re really good at the art of that. And so presenting those concerns in such a way that leadership is going to be open and is going to be willing to bring you into the process, it can be so impactful. It can be some of the most impactful work in your entire career. And so I just really encourage communicators to take those small steps of bravery because they can make a huge difference in your organization’s culture.

Emma Fischer: Oh, I think that is a wonderful closing note. Do you mind telling the viewers where they could find more about you and your company?

Ann Melinger: Sure, absolutely. You can learn about our company at thinkbink.com, or you can connect with me on LinkedIn, I’m Ann Melinger. We also have a monthly newsletter that talks about a lot of these topics, culture, values, everything in between. So I definitely encourage everybody to check it out and subscribe to the newsletter.

Emma Fischer: Thank you so much, Ann, for today. That was You’ve Got Comms and I hope to see everybody next time.

Ann Melinger: Thanks so much.