The Rise of Corporate Podcasts: Why Audio Is Internal Comms' Most Human Channel

Emma Fischer: Hi, and welcome to You've Got Comms, the podcast for IC pros shaping the future of work. I'm Emma Fischer, Staffbase content marketing manager, and your host for today. So in this episode, we're diving into one of the fastest-growing internal communications tools, and that is corporate podcasts. So who better to join me today than Maximilian Conrad, or Max, the co-founder and CEO of Hypecast?And Max and I actually already did this one time. However, we thought it was audio, it's also video, and our lights went out. So we're really happy for our unofficial second go today, in which I can correct your bio now. You are not a lifelong audio nerd, we're going to say lifelong audio enthusiast, part-time podcaster, startup founder, and a really cool guy, I'd have to say. And I would love to hear, in your words, "What do you guys do at Hypecast?"

Maximilian Conrad: Thank you so much. Thank you, Emma, for having us. Yes, that's when you get into real-life podcasting, there's always many variables that you have to take care of. And well, we kind of messed up on that one. So thanks for doing this again. Well, what do we do at Hypecast? We focus on corporate audio, but if you want to do a broader scope of what we do is really all about stakeholder communication. So nowadays, how do I engage better with the different stakeholders that I have in my organization internally, externally, and then reach them in an authentic way, in a very personal way to really get your messages across. Because that's what companies struggle with nowadays. Any yeah, that's why we founded Hypecast, to consult you on that, to help you create the right format, and then, in the end, as an underlying infrastructure, build the entire software. So it's the software that we're recording this podcast episode on as well. So that's what we mainly do, and then help your company find a voice.

Emma Fischer: It's pretty cool, because now I could see both parts of it, because we first recorded in the podcasting van, which I really liked this experience. And you can check my LinkedIn. There's proof we did this. And now we get to do it on this platform. So I like seeing both sides of that. And this is a perfect intro, because I'd love to get started today with the case for corporate audio. So we live in a time where even political candidates are on podcasts. And things have changed so much, I'd say. When did you start, a decade ago, or first get into podcasts? I think there's been so much change. Why would you say so many companies now turn to internal podcasts? And how is that changing the way we receive information?

Maximilian Conrad: I think overall, podcasting has now turned into a mainstream medium. There's some studies that were just released a couple of weeks ago, around that now more than 50% of Americans listen to a podcast at least once a month. So it's more than half of the population. We're seeing growing numbers across Europe, Asia, everywhere. Now, one of the biggest markets as well, Brazil. So podcast is now a mainstream medium. And usually, what happens when mainstream media is established, it moves into this corporate world. We have seen that with video, we've seen that with social media now. Staffbase is a social intranet platform. And you know, we started off with social media. So we started off with Facebook and all those kinds of things. It's the same with, you know, we all started off, the older generation, started off on ICQ. And now we have Slack, or we have Teams, and those kind of things. So once a medium is established enough, it moves into the corporate world. And that's what we're seeing with podcasting as well. And it's moving into the corporate world for the same reasons why we love podcasts, as an individual. It's very authentic. It's very close to the ear, and then it's very intimate. And why do people listen to podcasts? It's to get information, to be updated on the latest news, and to be entertained. And so that's the same way we want to consume information from our organization. We're tired of the 175th email a day that we can't really manage anymore. And then, compared to video, which is a big thing now for a lot of people, I think James Cridland from Podnews said it really well. Podcasts are always great, or audio in general is always great. It is the tool for your ears while the eyes are being busy. So it's a medium that you can consume passively while managing other tasks, while commuting, while taking a lunch break. And then think about organizations, and that's the main thing. We are trying to reach people in organizations now as well, that are non-desk workers. Especially in Germany, but a lot of other countries as well, a lot of organizations generally think about their HQ when they think about "What kind of tools we need, how do we engage people?"But for a lot of companies, if you think about auto manufacturers, the smallest amount of people or retailers, the smallest amount of people works in HQ; the rest works distributed non-desk jobs. So they don't have an email. They don't have a screen. How do I reach them? How do I engage with them? So audio is a great way of doing that because you have your phone in your pocket and can listen to a podcast easily while doing something else. So those are a number of reasons why podcasts move into the corporate world.

Emma Fischer: I love what you said about the passive consumption because I'm really into cinema, and I saw some other cinema people, they were commenting on a forum. So many people these days are used to passive consumption that they just want to not look at a movie, and then they miss all of the things in films that are not being said. People are like, "I'm really confused watching this film. "They're like, "Well, you were on your phone the whole time, and you're only listening to the dialogue." So it's like you're tapping into how that can actually work to cater to people where they're at. I do think people should get back into focusing on things, but not all the time. Sometimes you're like, "Hey, I'm doing something." Maybe you're out working and you can listen to this podcast. I listen to them when I'm doing my makeup or commuting.

Maximilian Conrad: And that's a very good point. We always say, now you have a toolbox of things. There's groups of people, and there's messages that are great and work well in written form. There's great things that you can do via video, and there's great things you can do audio-only. So the example of video is always the reference that I use. So I don't know. What's your favorite movie?

Emma Fischer: "The Shining."

Maximilian Conrad: "The Shining." So "The Shining." probably works really well because you have the visual component to it because it can create this scenery. Would it work as an audio-only? Maybe, maybe not. Probably not.

Emma Fischer: My other favorite, "Paris, Texas." No, if you're not watching that film, you're just like, "What's happening?"

Maximilian Conrad: Exactly. And then if you think about the Marvel movies, if you think about James Bond, there's so many movies where you need that visual component to get the whole story, those blockbuster movies. But then think about your evening news. Think about a talk show. You don't need video for that. You can listen to the conversations that people have, like a talk show.That works really well in audio-only, and if companies take that into consideration, understand each channel that they like catering to, then they would understand, "Hey, there's a few things. We don't need the nine o'clock video conference from the CEO, where everybody has to attend, because you can do it, first of all, on demand. You can do it audio-only, and then people can consume it on their own time, and you don't get everybody, 80,000 people in your organization, to join a video call at nine o'clock on Monday morning."You don't have to because that usually upsets people, instead of bringing them closer together, right? But then there's moments where it's a town hall, where it's a video message that you need for product presentations, for example, or other stuff. Always make sure that you get the right message for the right channel.

Emma Fischer: I really like something else you've said, which is that podcasting is the most human channel, and I do copywriting, and in corporate copywriting. I can't put my personality. It's not about me; it's about the brand, always. But I do think podcasting, a CEO shouldn't enter a podcast, you can correct me, with media training. I think it's probably better if they're giving a message to their company that they're being authentic. So what problems do you think that podcasting can solve for people by offering this unique platform?

Maximilian Conrad: Again, I think we have to start a bit earlier in that chain. If you look at Gen Z now, when they decide to work for a company, it's not the brand name or the company logo on the big building. It's, "Does senior leadership have the same values as me? Do they have certain convictions about certain topics? Are they representative of me as a person?" And then it doesn't really matter what kind of logo is on the building. And so that's what companies need to understand. So yes, you're right. You can't go in with just media training and giving you the marketing communications talk. You need to be authentic. You need to be honest. You need to be open. And that's what podcasts are really good for. That's why those, where people are just chatting, work really well, still where it's just no topic, and then people randomly talk together. It's the most human form of connection, right? Where you have just, an honest conversation. So that's what people always offer is like, "Can we just have an honest conversation?" And that's what a podcast is great for. And then, if we think about it in the corporate world, I think it's also a paradigm shift that needs to happen, where nowadays, we're all focused on the external. And then we do an external first, and then we use that for internal. But think about building your messaging and being authentic and building your narrative and everything from an inside-out view, where I start with the closest people to me, which most of the time is my employees. And usually, they're also the most critical because they know what's going on. Because they know that not everything is fluff, that not everything is going well, they know how much you struggle to get a new product shipped, and all the bullshit that happened beforehand. So then you get the message right. Then, if you convinced your people internally, you have ambassadors that go out and are becoming brand ambassadors on the outside world. And also, you get your message right and can really be convincingly authentic and find your own personality, and find your own voice, and then go to the outside world, and then sit on a podcast or in a talk show and talk the way you learned it from the inside-out perspective. And podcasts are a great way of doing that. And then, they're not live. You can always edit if something didn't go the way you wanted it to go.

Emma Fischer: What I really like is the authenticity because I don't know if this is controversial, but I am personally really sick of LinkedIn messages, and they're all in this little formula, it's like, first line, and then it's like line, line, line, line. When I first joined the company and I was active on LinkedIn, I'm like, "Sure. They don't want paragraphs. Things were like this, this, this."And it does perform better. At one point, you're like, "Oh my gosh, I just want someone to say something instead of having to craft it." So when it comes to authenticity, what advice could you give for something that's like, "This is an authentic podcast, and this is like a check-a-box"? Because I think sometimes things come across as really staged if someone's trying too hard to be authentic, but it's trained. Is it just like you go in blindly, or is there any other advice?

Maximilian Conrad: I think, like from a content creation perspective, stop writing scripts. Stop writing scripts. Have your notes down. Have your bullet points down that you want to discuss. Beforehand, the way we did, "Hey, we're recording something." You told me, "I want to talk about this. I want to talk about this. I want to talk about this." So I have a chance to prepare and come up with what is interesting that we want to talk about. So we kind of have a few talking points. And then, within that, we have an open conversation, and maybe one of the topics doesn't make it into the episode because we're keeping a very organic conversation going. And that's the main thing when it comes to content creation. Don't write everything down. Have your talking points ready. That's the one thing. And I think the other part is, and you mentioned it, and I like it very much when you say it like, "This performs really well." And it follows a certain formula, but then it's all based on the KPIs you're looking at. And usually, in social media, the KPIs that we all look for is impressions, and so reaching high numbers of people. But I think we need, again, to rethink "What are the relevant KPIs? Is it like maximum reach of my content? Or is it maximum engagement within the community that I'm trying to reach?" So if I'm building a niche product or a special interest product, it might be fine . . . Like if I want to create a podcast for the CEO of every S&P 500 company, my audience will only be 500 people and maybe a few more, but it's not going to be 10,000. But I'm catering to a specific audience and then building content for those people. What are they interested in? To interact with your community to really build a product or a conversation that is close to your audience is a great way of doing that. So understand your audience. Build something that is for a specific audience. Don't focus on maximizing reach, but maximizing engagement within your audience, and then get rid of transcripts or scripts for your podcast and just have talking points. I think those are just a few things. And then, of course, it won't happen from Episode 1; it's practice. So persistence and repetition, and then ideation, those are the things that's when you get really good at something. You know, I recorded my first podcast episode 2015, I think. When I go back and listen to it, I feel like, "Oh my God, what was I doing?" And now people say, "Oh, you have such a great voice for podcasting. And you're so good in it." Yeah, because I've probably, on my own, recorded over 300 or 400 podcast episodes, I didn't start off that way. So it's about repetition, training yourself, and then finding your voice along the way. So get started, don't go for the 100%. Do the 80%, and keep going.

Emma Fischer: I know we had, for our other podcast, a former Barack Obama speechwriter on, and he said that he's amazing. His name is Terry, and he has a book, "Say It Well." And he was like, "Even Barack Obama wasn't born this naturally gifted speaker." So that's what I think. I'm like, "Okay, if Barack Obama learned to become a speaker, then I think a lot of us can, because he's such an incredible speaker."

Maximilian Conrad: 100%. Not just the speaking on its own, but I think speaking with your own voice is the thing. Don't follow a formula, trying to figure out who you are as a person. What really makes you stand out? What are your convictions, again? What are the things that you stand for that you value? And build that into your conversation. And then that brings out the way you talk. What references do you use? What sayings do you use? And that really makes it personal to you. And that makes it then authentic. And that's what makes it stick in people's heads. It's not the well-crafted, AI-written email that everybody has. Then you're going to be average. And then your message is going to be average. And people are going to treat it that way. If you want to stick out, just find your voice. And I think, especially with leadership communications, there's a lot of people out there, CEOs and senior leadership, that really need to work on not fitting into this structure that we have, but developing a style. The way you develop a management style, that same way you need to develop a communication style that works for you. Maybe you're an introvert. Yeah, then find the way of still making it work. If you're an extrovert, yes, do something else.

Emma Fischer: Yeah, I was watching the newest John Oliver episode, and they were talking about . . . I can't think of the word, but it's like AI spam, basically, and so much stuff on Instagram, on social media, it's AI now, and how the regulations are allowing this. And I think one of the best ways we can rebel against that, or rebel against, "Hey, the LinkedIn algorithm is so repetitive," well, we can change that. Like you said, are we looking at the right metrics for success? And we always have the choice. And one thing that now stands out to me about podcasting, through this conversation, is it's more evergreen content, because if you're jumping on a trend to an image or a meme, I even suggested at one point, like "The White Lotus," "But we have to put this out right now, because "The White Lotus" is hot; next week, it's not." But if you have a podcast episode, you can tune in at any point and listen to people talking about a subject. So I think it stands up better over time, especially because it's not trying too hard.

Maximilian Conrad: I had a conversation with our director of consulting yesterday, and we were talking about, with blockbuster movies, you create a moment in time, and that's hot, and that runs for a couple of days or weeks. But if you think about a TV show or series that has substance that is well-thought-out, like, I don't know, "Game of Thrones," "Stranger Things" . . .

Emma Fischer: "Sopranos."

Maximilian Conrad: "Sopranos," They might be out of the conversation for a little bit, but they continue to stay in our minds. That's kind of like how I see podcasts: as a series that is never really super, super flashy, and hot, but that continues to stick in your head, and that builds the relationship. And then that really helps you get your message across, because it's, again, about repetition. It's about keeping people engaged. And so, that is one thing that I see as a valid point for podcasting as well. And it's also a little bit of maybe a counterculture to where we're now saying the attention span on TikTok is down to 1.2 seconds. So you need to cram the hook into the first 1.2 seconds. So people will just swipe across your video, and that's not working with podcasts. So if you go into podcasts, people generally listen to, on average, 45 minutes to an episode. So think about how many TikTok videos you need to create, how many Instagram postings you need to create to engage somebody with your brand or your content for 45 minutes straight. That's nearly impossible. Because people are also looking for this deep dive, this conversation. Also having where sometimes the conversation runs off a little bit, and it's just not just crammed into like two minutes, super substantial information, where everybody's like, "We need to condense the information. We need to pack more information in one minute."Yeah, but people are not going to consume more information because you just crammed it into a smaller space. You just made it so tight that it feels like it's going to burst, and nobody's going to remember anything. So give them a chance to learn something because you don't do your master's degree in 45 minutes. You spend a few years on it because you need to get into the groove, so that's the same with podcasting, I would say.

Emma Fischer: And then, when you have that 45-minute episode, do you have all this opportunity for repurposing?

Maximilian Conrad: Yes!

Emma Fischer: So could you explain that for a minute? If someone's like, "Hey, I want to try this." What do you do? You don't just take that 45-minute podcast. There's other things you can do.

Maximilian Conrad: Yeah, exactly. So we're recording video-audio, right? So we know video, generally, attention spans range from one and a half to two and a half minutes. Probably because we are doing a great podcast, everybody will stay in for the duration of this podcast, the 40 minutes that we're going to do, and they love you as a host. So that's different, but usually, it's one and a half, two minutes. But so we're going to have probably a ton of great snippets that we can repurpose from this video that you can use, as short form video to get attention to a certain topic that we're talking about, or get people hooked on, "Hey, if you're interested in this topic, you can do the long version, and you don't necessarily need video for the long version because the conversation that we're having works without video. Again, you should watch it with the video because there's two very good-looking people on this podcast. But if not, then it's still two smart people on this podcast, so you can listen to them."

Emma Fischer: And there's a fly sometimes going around in the flat.

Maximilian Conrad: There's a fly. I've seen it, too. Yeah, you could see the fly. It's kind of like a little gimmick. Because in our tool, everything is transcribed also, you can repurpose the written content for blog posts, for also, "What are the messages that are in there that I can repurpose to write my next postings?" or maybe there's some interesting questions in there that I can use and say, "Hey, what should be a follow-up podcast? Who should I be talking to?" There's a bunch of stuff that then AI can do and repurpose the written content to a ton of stuff, or just take the whole thing and say, "Hey, I want to have this in German, French," I don't know, whatever language you think of and do an automatic translation into a different language and have that as a podcast or as an executive summary ready. So in that pyramid of content production, you have the long form with the video, and then you can repurpose it into probably this episode, into a month worth's of content.

Emma Fischer: And see, I think that's also a really good case of how to use AI, because at this point, I am sick to death. I don't care if it takes me longer. I'm going to do my content myself because they've released the MIT study. I think you have 38% less brain function if you're just using AI, and you just you yourself just start copy-pasting, copy-pasting. So it's like, create the content yourself and then use AI to help automate the distribution. I think that is . . .

Maximilian Conrad: Exactly. And like I said, if you think about communications teams, especially internal communication teams, they are always, usually always low on resources, either team sizes or the resources that they have. So going in and recording something authentic that we do, and then having all those core messages in there, and then they don't have to go in. You know, the AI can give you suggestions on what is good snippets. You can always use other parts as well, but it already gives you, kind of like, you're not starting on the blank canvas; you're starting with a few things already. And sometimes, 80-20 rule is good enough. Sometimes I just need something. It will help me to identify certain things because I just don't have the time, then it's great. But it gives you a starting point, and then I can get into the groove. So I learn about it and then I can adjust it and become better off using AI as a gadget and as a helper for me to create content, and finding, again, that specific voice that I'm looking for. But yeah, I'm 100% in agreement with you that if you just go in and try to create everything from AI, you're just going to get to a very average level of content quality, and then it can be subsidized by any brand name because everybody can do it, and then it's just plain and boring.

Emma Fischer: I think it is brain rot, too. I'm like, "Okay, everything's done really quickly. I did 10 times the amount, but it's just mediocre."

Maximilian Conrad: Exactly. And I think that's, again, podcasts, a great way of . . . Like think about if you're a big company, you maybe have 10,000, 20,000 people in your organization that have stories to tell, that have experience, life experience. There's so many good stories in there. If you go back and think about the different conversations over lunch that you had with colleagues, there's always a moment, or at the last summer party or Christmas party, there's always somebody that you meet randomly that you haven't known from your organization.And then you're like, "Oh, that's what you do? This is your hobby? Oh, you have done this?" There's the other great story where it's like, bringing those stories to life, that is the essence of your organization, because, in the end, we can all have the same great tools. Everybody, every company in the end, can use Staffbase that makes it really easy to have the foundational level, but then the content that goes in, there should be a human touch to it, and that's the people in your organization, right?And it's the same with, we can have a great podcasting tool, but if there's garbage going in what we speak into this microphone, the best tool doesn't help you to get it to a great level. So it's like the tools are great, but we can all get them, so there's no differentiator in that. But then the people that I hire for my organization, the people that work in my organization, they, in the end, make up what is why other people want to join the company, why my customers are, they're in a people business, why they're buying with us because in the end, they feel like, "Hey, I trust that person." So bringing out those stories in the end, that's where you need to go in, and podcasting is a great way of exactly bringing that out.

Emma Fischer: I think people actually do want internal podcasts because when I said, "Hey, this is our third Staffbase podcast we're doing today, the You've Got Comms, and someone was like, "Oh, are we doing an internal podcast?" when I mentioned a new podcast. And I was like, "No, but that would actually be pretty cool." I'd like to see . . . I know our CEO, he said something to rally us. He was just not like, "Fuck, yeah," but he did say "Fuck." He was just like, "Let's fucking do it" or something. Everyone was like, "Hell, yeah!" Like we like to see the CEO let loose a little bit and show that he's rallying.

Maximilian Conrad: And be human. Yeah, and I think that's a great point. So I think there's a strange perception of leadership being perfect all the time. "I can't make any mistakes" and all that, where it's like, I think people are not looking for that. They rather have a CEO, where they understand, "Hey, he addresses issues. He has emotions when he is excited." I've been watching a bit of Steve Ballmer content over the last few weeks.

And to me, it's like he's jumping across stage, the former CEO of Microsoft. So he's jumping across stage like a crazy person. And he's super excited about stuff. As you think about it at the time where he was the CEO, it's like that was not seen of, but that worked for him. It doesn't work for Bill Gates. It didn't work for Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs did a very different approach, but I think they all found their own . . . They were very close to their personality, and they were showing emotions, and they were showing like, "I'm totally behind this. I love this. And maybe I don't know what to do with this. And you know what, this is where I failed, and this was a fuck up" or something. I think that's what people want to see because they want to work for that human being and not this over, huge, fake CEO type that never fails, always wears a suit, is always robotic. People are not looking for that anymore. And I think that's what leadership needs to understand, that the way we shift as a society, it becoming more informal, I think you have to become that in your communications as well. The first time I used emojis in a WhatsApp message, sending to my boss when I was still working as an employee, I felt like, "This feels so strange, and this feels so like I'm crossing a boundary." Today, WhatsApp as a channel in communications is widely accepted, and emojis and reply GIFs in a corporate context, those used to be the gamers doing it and the nerds. And now, reply GIFs are in Teams. They're built into Teams.

Emma Fischer: Yeah, in Slack, you save your own emojis, everyone . . .

Maximilian Conrad: Exactly. Everybody does emojis. So 10 years ago, that wasn't thought of. Like that was impossible to think about that.

Emma Fischer: That's very true. I saved all the "Always Sunny in Philadelphia" reactions as Slack reactions, and I use those, and it's like . . .

Maximilian Conrad: It's my favorite TV show, by the way.

Emma Fischer: Oh, nice, nice. A man of culture.

Maximilian Conrad: It's my favorite TV show.  Exactly. But you know, thinking about that, that we're becoming a bit more informal, it's not just leaving away the tie in your suit, but it's the way you communicate. Because in the end, successful product launches, successful hiring, successful team management always comes down to "How do I communicate this?" Transformation is . . . Like why so many transformational projects are struggling to be successful? Because we don't understand how to communicate correctly. You know, use the tools to do that and learn about communications. It always feels like, "Yes, we all know how to speak, but we don't know all how to communicate."

Emma Fischer: I was going to put you on the spot and be like, "Do you have an example of really bad corporate communication?" But I just saw one the other day. It was Mark Zuckerberg, and he was doing a presentation to Meta people. He was just like, "And we are on an animals theme, and we will go with the animals theme and do an animal for our next thing." It was just really robotic and uninspired.

So I was like, "He's definitely not known to be inspiring," but can you think of the opposite end, where you're like, "Wow, this was an amazing corporate message"? I think you had an example before that, even was about the Ukraine war.

Maximilian Conrad: Yeah. So one of our customers, E.ON, a huge energy company in Europe, so they're in the energy sector, right? So when the war in Ukraine started, it was a huge, huge topic on many levels because they have a team in the Ukraine. They have energy . . . Like the gas coming in via the pipeline from Russia. So they were, "What is happening on an operational level as an organization? What is happening to our team in the Ukraine with that? And eventually, what is happening to me as a person working here? Like how does this affect me? How does this war affect me working here, but also as a human, and everything?" And so, they were looking to react fast, and they were looking to react, addressing all those topics where they didn't know yet, where they didn't have all the answers yet, of course, because it was just happening back when it started. And also, they said, "We can't just go out and send emails to everybody because it doesn't really reflect on that this is a very emotional topic, and we need to calm everybody down and tell them where we're at." So they created a podcast, an internal podcast, around that topic to cover those aspects and also to continuously update on what is happening on the things that they were able to say and let them know what they didn't know. And of course, there were a few things that they couldn't talk about at certain times, but they also addressed that. And that is still one of their most successful internal campaigns that they ever did to address a topic. And even though it's a very emotional topic, it's super sad that we have to use this as an example of a good way of communicating, but it does happen. And we do have those moments where tragedy happens and where things are very uncertain, and then finding the right way of addressing an entire organization in different countries, that is a great way of how you manage this because you are, as an organization, a huge part of an individual's life. Usually, or most of the time, you cover, on average, eight hours a day of your life. And if you think about the other eight hours I sleep, then I have eight hours of free time. One-third of the day I'm going to spend with my employer. So you're going to play an important role. I'm going to look to you for information as well. And I look for you for a lot of things, trust, security and safety, and all that. So understanding that is really a key thing of drafting your communication around certain topics.

Emma Fischer: That was so nicely said, but now I really have to get this reference in. We said this last time, and it's, if you don't understand yet the case for podcasts, you have to look up the "Key & Peele" sketch, "Text Confusion," and then see that what you're trying to say doesn't always translate. Someone's like, "What's up?" Someone's like, "Oh, what's up? What's their attitude?"

Maximilian Conrad: Oh, yes. I love that sketch.

Emma Fischer: I think that's the best way to connect with people and serious topics, just let people know what's going on. But also, was it you who mentioned there was someone, said it was just a podcast, and it was the CEO eating pizza or something?

Maximilian Conrad: Yeah.

Emma Fischer: And it was just really casual, and it's like people also want that.

Maximilian Conrad: Yeah, 100%. There's another great example. It's a coating company, like coating, like the paint, the coating of buildings, and stuff like that.

Emma Fischer: Coating.

Maximilian Conrad: Coating, yeah. So he does a podcast where he does his Friday pizza run for the family, has the phone, and a clip-on microphone like you have in his car. Drives to get pizza for the family. And while he does that, he gives an update to the organization, saying, "Hey, it's Friday. Week is over. What was important this week? And what are we looking for? What is going to be important next week?And then in the meantime, this week, I'm on the diet. I'm getting the salad, the girls want, I don't know, a pepperoni pizza. And my wife is option for, you know, wants to be a bit adventurous, and goes for, I don't know, pineapple or something on pizza." So it does the humanization of him, showing him as a family person, as something that you can relate to. Eating is something that we all do. And then I can also squeeze in like, "Hey, how was the week?" Do a recap of the week, and so I can listen and say, "Oh, that was going on in the organization," because you might have been buried in a project, and you didn't have the eyes to look around what was going on in the organization. And we often have that feeling of like, "I'm so swamped with what I have to do. I don't have time to catch up. So I don't know what's going on so I feel disconnected. Because I'm always feeling like I'm in that hamster wheel, and never get any chance to look left and right."And that's what companies complain about as well. That's why they thought, "Hey, we need to bring everybody back into the office." I don't think that's how you solve this issue of feeling disconnected from your organization. It's, "I'm super swamped with everything I have to do. I never understand what is happening in the rest of my organization, because I never have the chance to speak to anybody."So it's such a small project. It's so easy to do it. But it has such a big impact, because it covers so many things, and then it also gives you the view for next week, so you always understand, "What are the priorities of my superiors," right? So I can always do an adjustment of what I do. Say like, "Hey, does this play into what our CEO's vision is going for? Am I working on the right project? Do I need to reset my priorities?" Because if they say, "Hey, we're focusing on, I don't know, expanding in Southeast Asia," and then I'm just drafting a plan to do expansion in, I don't know, the Middle East, then it's like, "Ah, maybe I need to like rework my priorities." So there's so much in that small, little piece of content that they're working on, and it's so easily done. I think it's also a great example of where podcasts work really well.

Emma Fischer: I would say definitely, maybe since the start of the pandemic, and then now there's just so much other stuff going on in the world, and everything, so people are really sick of seeing celebrities or seeing influencers, or seeing rich people being rich. And I think they just want to see normal people being normal. "Hey, that's my coworker, Steve. That's his dog. That's the book he recommended," just showing this human side. I know, Henry Schein, one of the Staffbase customers, they were like, "They have a dog page, and everyone loves that at Staffbase, we bring our dogs to work." So it's like, people just want this, "Hey, that's that person's dog" connection. So I would say people are overthinking the accessibility of podcasting. It's probably a lot more accessible than they think. So as a final question today, if let's say I'm a comms team of one, I have a really low budget, I never got started on podcasting, what would you tell me to do?

Maximilian Conrad: I would firstly ask, if it's a podcast, why do you want to do it? What is the reason for you doing a podcast? Because maybe you give me a reason where I would tell you, "Don't do it, then." Because, for some cases, it's like, "Hey, I want to sign up new customers. I want to use this as a lead generation tool." Then I would be like, "Ah, there's probably better ways to do it."But for internal comms, yes, why do you want to do it? And then, who do you want to address? Is this really the most critical group of people that you want to address? So where do you have the most need to communicate? Maybe, what community is underserved at the moment? And then, what is it that you want to talk to them about? Part two of that question is, what do they actually want to hear? Because it might be different to what you want to tell them. And you should always focus on what they want to hear. And then you can, you know, if you establish a medium that they want to hear, then it becomes relevant to them. Then you can think about weaving in what you want to send. But don't think like, "I have this information, I want to send this to this person. And so I'm doing it." Like send them an email, that's fine. But that's why people don't react to emails, because you assume, just because you send it, that they want to read it. Same with listening. Focus on what they want to hear and not on what you want to send. And then, if you understand what they want to listen to, understand if you have that content to provide to them. If you don't have it on your own, find somebody who has it and let them do the podcast. As a comms person, you don't have to do everything. You can also be the person empowering others to do it.

Emma Fischer: Tell my manager. I started off as a writer of the podcast episodes, and then I come on as the host, but I do like trying both sides.

Maximilian Conrad: Yeah, but that's the thing. Yes, you can write it, and then it doesn't always have to be the same person. You can be helping them to find their voice, and it can be somebody from the sales team, or it can be somebody from HR, from wherever. It doesn't always have to go through that bottleneck internal comms. If you're already low on resources, then you're going to get in . . . And we do have cases with customers that then say, "Oh, I don't have even time to do it." Yeah, but you don't have to. You don't have to be the person on the podcast. Find somebody who loves to do a podcast and use them to be a representation of your company. So, final example, I was working with L'Oreal, and that was the reason we were looking for solutions why I started this company.So I was a co-host in a podcast. The CMO team was doing a podcast. I was working in e-commerce, but I was a podcast fan. And so the CMO team always struggled with connecting with the marketing teams in the different divisions. So you had the divisional teams, and then you had the CMO team. The CMO team always seemed like the team sitting in their ivory tower, coming up with strategies that have no real-world value, because the marketing teams in the divisions that were on the ground, in the trenches, they knew exactly what was going on. So we always had that conflict going on. And so we said, "Okay, you know what? We have somebody from the CMO team and me, and I'm just going to play a role as somebody from the division. And we have a conversation about, like, 'Hey, this is the new thing that we want to do.' I'm going to ask you like, 'Yeah, but how should that work for me in my division? What are you thinking about?'" So they had a chance to explain what they were doing. So you're bringing people together, and you're showing unity by using this format, and also challenging each other in the conversation of understanding each other. Those would be the questions that I would be asking you from a division side. These are the questions that I would be asking you from a CMO side that you have maybe 15 times a day anyway.So we recreated that scenario as a podcast, and it worked really well to get people to be engaged. I wasn't part of a marketing team, but I love podcasts. I helped them with it, and I just played a role in that. You can be a host of a show.

Emma Fischer: Yeah. Later today, we have a recording, and I wrote this episode, but someone else was recording it because she just perfectly fits in with the guest. And I love then, when I'm behind the scenes watching it, they put their own spin on things. But she's a super busy person, so it's like I gave her a bunch of notes. I gave her questions, and then she takes it from there. 

Maximilian Conrad: Hopefully not just a written-out script.Emma Fischer: No, not a written script. But I'm like, "Yeah, I know I can get too verbose." So I'm like, "Okay, write everything down. Pare it down." And then I love it because they're just like, "Okay, she gave me so much prep," but then it’s like, "I'm going to do my own thing. I'm going to ask questions. I'm going to ask my own follow-ups." I love hearing and seeing that.

Maximilian Conrad: And that's perfect. So you prepare them really well. And then, usually in a corporate context, people just generally know what they're talking about when they talk about a certain topic. And usually when they are well-prepared, they feel safe of just having a conversation. So I think it's a great example that you're giving as well. And so it becomes very easy to get into podcasting and then, using the right tools, making it integratable. So that's why we integrate our software with you, because we don't want to open up new channels so it becomes easy to distribute it. I think this is a blueprint of how easy it can be to start a podcast. It doesn't have to be the huge studio with 14 different camera angles, a €900 microphone, and all that kind of stuff. You can start very simple and easy and still come up with a great-quality product.

Emma Fischer: Yeah, my best advice would be, we have six hosts for the other podcast, and I always pair the guest with a host when there's passion. It's always on purpose who hosts which episode. For example, we had to re-record this. If I was like, "I didn't feel passionate about this conversation," I don't want to come in and re-record it because, to be honest . . .Maximilian Conrad: It makes me feel very happy that you came on the podcast with me. It would have been terrible if, for the second episode, it's somebody else sitting, and it's like, "Yeah, I did the first one. I don't have passion anymore."

Emma Fischer: Yeah, they were like, "We have to re-record it. Do you want to do it? We could put someone else." It's like, "If someone else came in, Max, you were really boring the first time."

Maximilian Conrad: Yes, exactly. 

Emma Fischer: I was like, "Yes, we talked abo