The human algorithm: Balancing empathy, tech & leadership with Pinaki Kathiari

Lottie Bazley: Hello, everyone, and welcome to a brand-new episode of the Aspire to Inspire Podcast. My name is Lottie Bazley, and I am an Internal Communications Manager here at Staffbase. And today's guest is someone who sits at the intersection of creativity, technology, and humanity, Pinaki Kathiari, CEO and Owner of Local Wisdom.

For nearly two decades, Pinaki has led Local Wisdom's mission to help communicators and marketing leaders bring complex ideas to life through stories and visuals that truly resonate. His team works behind the scenes with some of the world's biggest brands, creating seamless digital experiences that empower communicators to be more strategic while still staying human in how they connect.

He is also the Cofounder of Resource Hero, a five-star Salesforce app helping organizations balance workloads, track resources, and make better business decisions in real time. And in today's episode, we're going to be talking about how to turn complexity into clarity, the role of design and storytelling in internal comms, and what it really means to make people feel more human at work. So, that is quite the list. Welcome today, Pinaki. Is there anything I have missed off there?

Pinaki Kathiari: Well, thank you so much, Lottie, for having me, and thank you for that lovely introduction. I feel like I need to have you introduce me everywhere I go, but I think you've covered it. I think you've covered it and I'm just excited to get into the topic. This is exciting.

Lottie Bazley: Amazing. I do have to say, I also love your podcast, Why Does It Feel So Wrong? So, I must admit, I've been feeling the pressure on this podcast, but let's get into it.

Pinaki Kathiari: No pressure. We'll just have a fun conversation.

Lottie Bazley: Okay. I appreciate it. Thank you. So, as I mentioned, you've spent almost two decades at Local Wisdom helping global brands simplify really complex issues. And you've mentioned before that your fascination with technology design enables you to create solutions that are typically out of view. So, could you tell me a bit about that mindset and how it influences your role as CEO? 

Pinaki Kathiari: Yes, absolutely. I think you said a little bit about it as far as the podcast, Why Does It Feel So Wrong To Be Human At Work? And it just occurred to me that a lot of what I do, I try to go a different way. If everyone is zigging, I kind of zag. And it's an interesting concept that came from a lot of different things in my career. But an example is that in the podcast, as you mentioned, it's very conversational. And that was the concept of the podcast. When we decided to do the podcast, it was a little bit more scripted.

And so, the first few episodes, when we were listening to it, it looked like it's not holding that real conversational charm. And it was because we knew what we were going to say. You can't really have a conversation if you know what the other person is going to say, because it takes away from the serendipity of it. So, then we decided to simplify the complexity here because I think as humans, we like to complexify things or make it more complicated. So, we said, "Hey, you know what? What if we just didn't know what the other person was saying and started going at it from that standpoint?"

We still had the beats and knew that we had to stay on time, but that serendipity made it so that when Chris [Lee] said a joke, when I'm laughing, I'm really laughing and that really shines through, right? So, I think that's where a lot of it comes from. It's kind of like seeing things or being, I guess, maybe brave enough to head into a little bit of unknown to try to simplify where we are because, a lot of times, our brains will just move us to this safe place. And safe isn't always easier in that way. Does that make sense what I'm saying? It's a little bit ethereal because it's creative in that way.

Lottie Bazley: No, absolutely. I completely agree and it's something that I kind of . . .  As someone who's done podcasts before or public speaking, it's about trying to make sure that you come into a conversation as prepared as you can be, but without coming across too scripted, because then you lose this authenticity. And I really feel like it's about finding that balance. And I think a lot of the time, people come into something like this, whether it be a podcast or a presentation or whatever it is that a leader might be doing.

It's that they want to make sure that they have that clarity. Therefore, they feel like they need to come in almost over-prepared to make sure that the message that they want to get across is coming across. And I know clarity is something that you talk a lot about that over the years. So I'm curious, firstly, what your definition of clarity is. And has that changed over the years and over your different career paths?

Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. I think clarity for me might be coming from what I'll call maybe a little bit of undiagnosed OCD or something like that in me from perhaps my family. Like my dad, he used to keep all of his stuff nicely, neatly organized in these boxes. And if something was out of place, it would bother him. And for me, it's kind of similar and I think about it as clarity. For me, in communications, I really want to be sure and certain that what I'm thinking and what comes out of my mouth is translated in a correct way for whoever is now taking it in because they're going to take some action on it.

So it's like if I'm not aiming it correctly, we could miss the target. And I think it came to me because of a story, because of a project I worked on a long time ago, early in my career, I guess. Speaking of podcasts, this was a long time ago before iPhones. The Apple iPod was available, and podcasts had just come out. And we had a client say, "Hey, I want to do a podcast. Can you help us come up with a plan?" So, I was like, "Sure."

And I said, "Just to clarify, you want to create a series of audio recordings that will then stream over RSS, and then people will download them and get them on their iPod?" And he was like, "No, we have an audio that we want to put on our website that people can listen to." And I was like, "Okay, wow, that's much different than what I'm thinking about here." So if I didn't clarify that, we would have gone into totally somewhere else and wasted a lot of time. And I think that story keeps coming back to me to say that. I just need to be certain that what we're both thinking about is the same picture.

Lottie Bazley: Yeah, absolutely. I really like that example because that's a lot of . . . There's hundreds and thousands of books or podcasts, audiobooks about communication. But I find that reconfirming what it is that someone else is saying to you is just a key component of any form of communication, whether that be if you're having an argument with your partner or you're coming to a business agreement with someone, that clarification of, like, "This is what I'm understanding that you're saying." So, I really appreciate the fact that someone like yourself has that in the back of your mind as you're going through a lot of different things.

Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, a lot of these things have come from making mistakes in the past. I've seen like if you're not clear and if you don't clarify what could happen, and maybe it's a little bit of PTSD from that, where I'm like, "You know what? I got to make sure that you really understand what I'm talking about." So, yeah, you're right. I often do clarify. And I sometimes ask others to clarify or find ways to ask questions to make sure it is clear, because we've all played that game of telephone as kids, and we know what happens.

Lottie Bazley: Absolutely, yeah. We've all been there. And the best thing you can do is obviously learn from your mistakes rather than wallow, which is sometimes the easier thing to do. As I mentioned in the intro, you've said before that your fascination lies at this intersection of technology, design, and humanity. So, can you talk me through what that means for you, and maybe walk me through a moment in your career where those three forces collided?

Pinaki Kathiari: Yes. What that means for me, I think it's just something natural for me, mainly because of just, I think, the way I was raised and part of my career path. For example, as growing up, I always wanted to be an engineer because my dad was an engineer. And then high school came, and I wanted to be a writer, a poet, an artist, a DJ, a music producer. My dad was like, "No, you're going to go into engineering." And, so, I went in college. I studied computer science and psychology.

And in the world of work, I was a writer, an entrepreneur, a consultant, designer, developer, played roles like information architect, strategist, communicator, leader, marketer, sales. And so I've been all over the place. And I think, for that, it gives me this perspective. So, I can see when these things come together, what does it feel like, because it almost is in me in that way. A moment when those three things came together, or all of these things came together, is in a few different places. I guess it's really right. I guess its really kind of right to the humanity comes into anything we do with technology and design is trying to solve a human need. And technology and design are different means to achieve that. A few ways that it comes together. One was, I think, when we create, when we're concepting a solution, we're always thinking about that need. For example, there was a solution where an HR team approached us and asked, "All right, we've set up these new competency models for this organization, and we need a way to convey them." And when we looked at all the documentation on it, it was these thick binders that people had to open up, read, find their place in, and learn where they need to go next.

And, so I said, "Hey, we have technology, and we have design. Instead of giving them these binders, let's ask them a few questions when they log on to this site, and then we'll actually just get all the right components together and give them a little map or a journey of where they are today and where they need to go." It's thinking about these busy folks who have to, now, adapt to this new model and comb through these documents. And so, we're like, "Hey, let's bring some more humanity. Let's save them some time and trouble by using technology and design just to shape the information in a way that's just specific and relevant to them."

Lottie Bazley: Love that. I think that's a really, really good approach. And actually, super interesting that you talk about your trajectory into your career with this whole engineer versus DJ-type thing. 

Pinaki Kathiari: I'm constantly arguing with myself.

Lottie Bazley: No, no, no, I had a similar thing where I didn't really know what I wanted to be when I "grew" up. So, I went down the English/psychology, but also the physics/maths route. I realized physics/maths is not for me. Luckily, not something that I needed to bring into my daily life. But I just love that you've taken that knowledge and that passion that you have for all of those different things and have found a way to combine all of them rather than just saying, "Okay. Well, I'm going down this route or that route."

Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, absolutely. I want to challenge you to bring physics into this somehow because I think the key part of your question, what I loved, is the intersectionality part. Because it's like we have these different facets of our lives and whatnot. And there's something really special and really you about that intersection of these things. It's funny. Chuck Gose and I are working on a talk, and it's actually relating physics concepts to communications. And those two things don't match because communicators do not like math and physics, but there's a correlation and something really interesting that we could pick out from that.

Lottie Bazley: Oh, my gosh. Well, you'll have to bring me along for the ride with that, for sure.

Pinaki Kathiari: Yes, we hope you're there.

Lottie Bazley: Yeah, bring me along. So, there was a point that you mentioned just now about, rather than giving people binders of all of this really complex information, you started from a different point, like this out-of-the-box thinking. And this is the question that I've been really looking forward to ask you is because of this turning complexity into simplicity, but without watering things down.

And that's something that I know I've personally struggled with, especially if we're communicating a really technical operational change or really safety-focused change, is making sure that you're keeping it simple for people, but, like I say, without watering stuff down. So, if you're faced with this really dense, technical content, what is your first step in making that relatable? And what do you find that communicators might be overlooking in that process?

Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. Great question, yeah. Maybe the answer in there lies into that DJ part. We're like mixing and mashing things together, too. But I think it starts with the technical content, whatever that is. I definitely need to understand it. Maybe not the details of every little thing, but I just conceptually understand what this is and it's trying to do, and make sure that it is of value because then we have a product issue if that's not of value.

The second thing would be just, and probably more important, is to understand the audience and where are they mentally, educationally, what's the kind of background, right? As I was saying, all of our experiences shape who we are today. So we're just like, "What is their background, and where are they today?" I think many times, that's overlooked because it's like the business has a need to do something. And we're not really thinking about the other person and where they are in that. And it's really interesting. I liken it to parent-child relationships all the time.

Because when I want someone to do ABC, so, I communicate them and tell them to do ABC. but if I'm not approaching it with empathy and where they are, the message is not going to land correctly. Actually, in fact, I have a five-year-old, so we have a young one again. And I'm kind of relearning different ways of parenting. So, when you're communicating in a time when children are angry or disappointed or frustrated, parts of their brain where they're understanding and taking in logic and communication is just not working. We're in this animal part of our brain.

So, it's understanding, "All right, where are they today or where are they right now? How do I get them to a state first of taking in information?" And then let me give them the information in a way that's made for them. Actually, if I take it back to that example with the competency model in HR, we had these new dense competency models, which had career progression paths with specific roles, and what you need to do and trainings that you needed to do to level up.

And then on the other side, we have marketers who were global across the globe and very busy as marketers are. And they want to grow and sell, but how do we then find the right way? So, we concepted that product. And then, in communicating it, it wasn't like the new competency model or learn the new competency model. It was like, "Welcome to your career coach." So we're now talking to them in a language that's now attuned to what they're interested in.

And it draws some interest from them, too. And it conveys that, "This is a coach. We're helping you. This is going to be easy. We're pulling you along the way. We're asking you questions to draw out the right answers for you and things like that." And so that's really where it comes from. It's like taking that step back to say, "Where are they?" And how do I change this message or communicate it in a way that we could actually get in their minds, and then be open and receptive to, as opposed to defensive and, "Oh, here's another thing I have to do."

Lottie Bazley: I love that. It's wild how much you can do with something like that because it's not any different information that you're conveying to them. It's just figuring out where they are and just shifting that perspective of, "How do we want people to receive this?" Therefore, what do we need to do in order to make that happen?

Pinaki Kathiari: Absolutely, it's kind of like . . . I'm sorry to cut you off. I apologize. I'll just say it like this, too, because it might resonate. As parents or whatnot, or even at home dynamics, you're like, "I want someone to do something. I want my son to take out the garbage or the trash." And I could just forcefully tell them, "Hey, we have to do it," or we could talk and get to an understanding of the type of home we want to keep and get a higher level of understanding of what it means to be this way.

Lottie Bazley: Love that. Maybe use this trash example with my husband.

Pinaki Kathiari: Yes, exactly. You know what? If you're angry at him for [not] taking out the trash, you're not going to have a constructive conversation about how to fix it, right?

Lottie Bazley: Absolutely. I really like that bit that you talk about, understanding your audience. And I think that's something that communicators in general, also marketers, are really good at doing, understanding the audience, knowing where they're at, how much time they have in their day to read communications, all of that kind of stuff. But something really resonated with me there when you talked about understanding the content yourself.

And I think even just recently, we had some organizational change at Staffbase. It was a new sales process that came in. And I was working through the comms that this person had put together, and I was just like, "I don't know whether this is good comms or not because I don't understand what this change in process is." And it was only when I then just dropped a five-minute diary entry with this guy, and we just talked about it. I was like, "Can you just talk me through what this actually is?"

And as soon as I understood it, I was like, "Okay. Now, I can figure out how to communicate this." So, I think that is something that we probably forget more as communicators because we think, "Well, we don't need to know the technical stuff. We're just portraying the message." But as soon as I understand what this process actually looked like and what it meant for the people it was impacting, I was like, "Cool, I know how to write these comms." So, that absolutely resonates with me there.

Pinaki Kathiari: And you having that conversation and that dialogue, a dialogue helps you to shape how you want to get the information or how best you learn information. So you're asking questions, "Let me understand this," so you could not only understand it, but also validate its value, right? Because if it's not a great idea, you'd be like, "Wait a minute." If it didn't make value for the whole company, you'd be like, "Wait a minute," because you need to do that before being able to convey that value the other way around. Kudos to you.

Lottie Bazley: Absolutely. Thank you. Finally figured it out. And actually, I want to ask a bit of a follow-up question. We've talked about simplifying technical content, but I guess another element of communication is talking about that more human-centric, bad-news delivery. So, for example, company reorg, there's going to be layoffs. And I've certainly been guilty of it myself, but I've seen it with leaders, too, where they kind of almost dial up this empathy, humanity, over-communicate, because they're delivering something that's quite humanly impactful. How do we make sure that when we're delivering bad news that we still lead with clarity?

Pinaki Kathiari: Yes. I'm curious to know, because I've seen some things also more the other way around, where it's just too little communication and whatnot. What are examples of over-humanizing communications are you seeing in these situations, if you don't mind me asking?

Lottie Bazley: I think it's very much to do with leaders understand that there are going to be some people that are scared by this, frustrated by this, and rather than just going straight to the message, which is, "Hey, we're doing a reorg, X many people are leaving," that they go through this almost really long-winded narrative.

Pinaki Kathiari: Oh, yes, this transformational narrative of streamlining and operationalizing. I know what you mean now. Okay, cool. You know, to look at it from the other perspective, as I've been on that side of the fence as well, it is not fun. And when we have to deliver bad news as humans, we just don't like to do that. And so, I understand it. You try to, I think, hide or subdue the pain that this event is going to cause a lot of people.

And so, it becomes natural to try to sugarcoat it or to try to lengthen it or avoid it. I don't want to take out the garbage. So, let me avoid it. That's where it's coming from. So, I guess in one aspect, the fact that they are feeling that is a good thing. And it happens to the best of us when we're all in a state of stress, pressure, and levels of sadness and anger. So, I think communicators, I think that's where it is really important to have this relationship with your communicator and your leader, to be able to have these difficult conversations.

I understand this initiative, or I understand the way you're going about it. I think it would resonate best if we were a little bit more straightforward with it or straight up with it and honest about it. I know it's really scary. So, what I tell folks and what I've done in the past is I'm more honest upfront about it. And I'm going out of my way or, as a company or organization, we're all going out of our way to help anyone who's impacted.

So, I'm letting out the news earlier, giving them an ample window, and we're all finding ways to help each other out. There's things that we've done. So, it changes from a transformation to help the company to a transformation to help the company, but this is a bad byproduct of it, if it needs to be that way. And here's how we're going to support this bad byproduct of it. So, for those who are impacted, we're doing this, we're doing this, we're doing things like that.

So, we've done resume updates, mock interviews, where I'm personally reaching out to folks who might have a need for people being impacted and things like that. I know not everyone could do all of those things, but just showing up earlier, saying what's happening, and really trying to support those who are impacted in that negative way, I think, goes a long way. My whole philosophy in business and networking and things like that, I think companies come and go.

I think relationships are key across companies, right? Even when you and I had met, you were in a different role within Staffbase and a different sort of relationship with Staffbase, but our relationship is stronger throughout all of the different roles that you've been. And wherever we go next, we'll be thinking of each other and being like, "Maybe I need to get Lottie on my podcast," and things like that.

Lottie Bazley: Oh, I mean, please, absolutely, would love that. I think it's really interesting what you say there about that. I guess, usually, a lot of what we as communicators want to put across is the, "Why is this happening?" But when you see really impactful change comms, I think people tend to care less about the why, or they don't care about the why first. They care about the what first. "What does this mean for me?" And I guess the, "How will you support me through this?" before I maybe end up caring, or maybe even not caring about the why.

Pinaki Kathiari: Yes, exactly. The why is irrelevant for some people, right? Exactly.

Lottie Bazley: Yes, exactly. So, now, I know I feel like we can't go through this podcast without talking about AI, because that's just something that's just so, so huge at the moment. And when I was doing some prep for this podcast, I saw a post on your LinkedIn, where you were talking about the Harvard Business Review that there was a stat in there that said 62% of employees use AI to draft emails or documents. I am in part of that. But 42% of leaders can't tell if it's from their team or whether it's AI, which you said, rightfully so, leads to an erosion of trust. And I really love what you said, that AI should be a co-pilot rather than a ghostwriter. Can you talk me through your thoughts on that?

Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. There's two things that I think led me there besides the Harvard Business Review data. The first was I found myself sometimes playing too much with an AI to make it sound like me. If I'm using AI to ghostwrite for me, I'm like, "That's not exactly me. I'll change this, I'll change that. It's not exactly this." So, what started being more helpful for me is to draft up ideas, and then perhaps have it edit and us working together in that way.

But I think solely relying on an AI to write for you and be a ghostwriter, one, it's innately not you. Because even if it wasn't AI, if it was someone else writing it, it's still not you, so there's that. There's a trust element there, which has been going on for all this time because executives have communicators and writers who write their speeches and things like that. So that's nothing new. But it's like the communicators are human, and there's still a touch of humanness to all of that.

The second thing is something that happened to me. I met somebody because I meet folks all the time. We connected on LinkedIn. We also had a good conversation on Zoom. And I think it was a week or two later, I get a LinkedIn message and this person was asking me for my thoughts on something, some advice on something. Actually, it was late at night. I was in bed, and I'm typing up this response. I just got this eerie feeling and thought.

I was like, "Wait, is this a bot?" And so, I saved my response somewhere else and I responded by asking a question or a clarifying question to see if it was a bot or what the response would be from this person. And I did ask, and I actually never got a response back. And so, I was like, "Yes." So it, a little bit, confirmed this belief or idea that it's a bot. It was the way the question was worded. And when I was thinking about our conversation, that made me think this.

So I was like, it's one thing for us to have a working relationship when you need advice or another opinion on something, and I could offer that to you. It's another thing if you're blasting a network and mining data off of a collective audience. And I think if this person would have been honest about that intent, I would have responded much better. But it seemed a little, I'm not saying dishonest, but it didn't seem as genuine as an actual conversation.

So, all of those two things got me together thinking that what happens when we know that all comms and all emails are generated and sent by AI in the future? How are we going to feel about the relationships with our managers or our coworkers or anyone? It's like you start questioning that relationship and trust fabric here because, nonetheless, the AI doesn't care at the end of the day. It can potentially empathize, but it doesn't truly care.

Lottie Bazley: Yeah, absolutely. And I totally agree with what you say there about that. It's not necessarily that it's dishonesty, but I guess it's that inauthenticity, which is something that we talk about a lot in comms. And there are definitely things that I can spot myself when someone sent a comm that is AI-generated. I think there's this ChatGPT hyphen that it hyphenates everything. I use a lot of hyphens in my writing anyway, but the ChatGPT one is somehow a little bit longer.

Pinaki Kathiari: Yes, the em dash.

Lottie Bazley: But something that I try and do, so one of the big uses for AI for me is I will write a message. I need to ask someone to do something for me, and I'll write what I would say conversationally, but it needs to be in a Slack message to an exec leadership member. So, they have not much time. I need to give them enough context, but not too much context that they don't have time to read it. I need them to know what actions I require from them, but I also want to come across firm but polite. And I think that's a really good way of using it because it's still authentically my voice. I'm just tailoring it to my audience. And I think that you don't lose authenticity there. You're just trying to, I guess, dial up the productivity of it.

Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, in that scenario, you're working with an editor in that way. So, it's more of a creative process. You're brainstorming with someone as opposed to telling me, "Just write this and send this for me." And I think that's the difference here. There's something I thought of in there because there's been times when I'm sending emails, and I want it to end with, "And I typed this email myself." You know what I mean? Because there's something about the time it takes me to type an email to someone that's showing a bit of care or showing a bit of love.

Like, I took the time to do this. I didn't just push a button and do that. So, I think there's something to that effect, but I totally agree. Just to be clear, I'm sitting in this in-between of AI hype and apocalypse. But it is incredibly helpful and time-saving for me. I do use it, and I am using it to save a lot of time, crunch a lot of information, and I am getting a lot of value from the use of AI. So, I just wanted to clarify and want to make sure that I'm not in one way or the other at this very moment.

Lottie Bazley: Good to know. Thank you for clarifying.

Pinaki Kathiari: Yes, we just have to be careful.

Lottie Bazley: I'm like, "Pinaki's terrified of it."

Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah, no, I'm not terrified. We just have to be careful. It is an extremely powerful tool that we all have access to in our back pockets. And that's probably the main interesting thing about it, what we can do. If you don't mind, I'll share another quick story on AI, just to be careful.

Lottie Bazley: Of course.

Pinaki Kathiari: Is that I was talking to an HR executive, maybe about a month ago, and she was telling me the story of how she had to rewrite an email that a leader was going to send to the whole team. And I was like, "Oh, man, you should have just told them to use ChatGPT." And they were like, "The leader did," and I was like, "Oh, so it wrote that type of email, even to GPT." So it's, again, giving me pause to think, "We have to be careful because the AI is giving us the answer that we want to hear or think we want to hear."

So, what you were saying is using it as an editor is a great thing. Another great use for AI is to use it as an empathizer. So, I'm sending this message to this audience. How would they take it? How would they interpret it? What are some of the objections that they might have to it? That is a great way for you to then start with you and then start crafting or finding different ways to make the communication better.

Lottie Bazley: Absolutely. And on a really similar note, I was at a conference the other day, and they were talking about using AI as a challenger. So, on a similar way, is that like, "I think this audience will take this from my communication, or I think they might feel this way. Challenge me. Give me some things that I might not have thought about before." And again, that's that you're not losing authenticity. It's just improving something that is already there that exists.

Pinaki Kathiari: Exactly. And I think that's really what's key in the use of AI. It's like the way you use it, I think, as we've seen, can increase or erode trust. And we want to kind of lean towards it increasing trust.

Lottie Bazley: For sure. And on a similar level then, not just talking about AI specifically, but what does innovation look like for you today? And how do you decide which emerging technologies are worth the time spent integrating them into your communication strategies?

Pinaki Kathiari: Ooh, that's a good question. Innovation. Innovation is fun because it's always scary. I think that's one of the things about innovation that I think it always has this interesting emotional pull. But I think for anyone who's asking for something innovative, you're asking for fear. And you have to be comfortable with that because, by definition, innovation is doing something new. And whenever any of us are doing something new, there's a bit of fear there. So, it's one of the things that I've come to grips.

I think the most innovative things that I've created really do start off as a pain point that I've seen and witnessed and felt. And for me, the process is understanding this pain its about just . . . It's funny. Through different experiences, different ideas, and random things come together, and it forms this idea of, "Ooh, that's very interesting," and then my heart pounds a little, and then I can't get it out of my mind. You know, we started this with the podcast, Why Does It Feel So Wrong to Be Human At Work? That started with me as a pain point.

And it came from, we have monthly all-hands roundtables at Local Wisdom. And as part of that, we have a ceremony where, at the beginning, we give each other kudos. Anyone can get up and say thank you to someone else for something specific that they did within that last month. And it's a fun time. Sometimes it's short. Sometimes it could go on long. When it goes long, like past 20 minutes, I've noticed people starting to apologize for having more thank yous to say. And I've said, "Hey, if we spend this whole time just thanking each other, that's a win."

But people still felt that urge. And at times, I even felt that urge. I actually did apologize. "I'm sorry. I have a few more thank yous to give." And it just came out. And then when it came out, I thought about it right afterwards. I'm like, "Wow, why does it feel so wrong to just sit here and thank each other for the work that we've done?" There are so many positives that come out of it. There's training out of it. There's repeated learning that comes out of it. So, that thought says, "All right, there's this pain of something that feels right to be human to thank each other, but it feels wrong in the work context."

And that's where the concept emerged right now. And it was like, I think you could ask my wife and son, because I kind of came out, iIt was like, "I want to come up with this concept called Why Does It Feel So Wrong To Be Human At Work?" And they looked at me blinking like, "Are you crazy? That's weird." But I think if you have a great idea and you tell someone that and they're not a little afraid of it, then your idea is too normal. They've heard of it before. It's not really that innovative.

Lottie Bazley: Yeah, absolutely. Love that way of thinking. And can I just say, genuinely, vouch for the podcast. I've been listening to it the last couple of weeks, and I really, really enjoy it. Really appreciate it.

Pinaki Kathiari: Thank you so much, Lottie.

Lottie Bazley: Of course. Well, unfortunately, we are coming to the end of our time today, but before I let you go, I wanted to give you a couple of quick-fire questions just to really put you on the spot.

Pinaki Kathiari: Ooh, I'll drink some coffee for that.

Lottie Bazley: So, number one, if you could fix one thing about how people communicate at work, what would that be?

Pinaki Kathiari: I would say before speaking, think about where that response is coming from even in yourself. A lot of times, if we are angry at someone for someone or get a certain feeling about someone else for something that's happening, it's usually because there's something in us that they're tugging at that we're not comfortable with in ourselves. So, look inside before we communicate outwards.

Lottie Bazley: Fabulous. Love that. Great answer. And now, one more. I gave this whole spiel in your intro about all of your accolades and all these incredible things that you've done and the tools that you've built and the teams that you've led and the podcast that you host. Is there one daily habit that you have that keeps you grounded?

Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. The first thing that came to my mind is the habit of having time to think. And sometimes, admittedly, I will feel guilty for having time to think. But at the end of the day, I am always grateful for making that time to think and reset all the things that are happening and taking in all the things that are happening so I could respond in a more calm, reasonable, rational way after I've had a chance to have everything settle.

Lottie Bazley: Love that. Couldn't agree more. And something that I've tried to be doing more of this year is giving myself grace and space, and whether that's to think about how you're truly feeling about something or to just give yourself 10 minutes to not feel guilty about lying in bed and reading a book or taking time to myself to go on a run rather than walk the dog, all of these things. I think it's just making sure you also don't feel guilty about taking that time as well.

Pinaki Kathiari: Yeah. I'll freestyle just a little bit real quick because it reminded me of something back to your physics learning. And I remember thinking of something where pressure also creates pressure. If you're pushing forward, I guess there's, oh, man, what is the . . . When you're pushing forward, the world is trying to always create balance. So if you're pushing . . . like I want A, B, and C a lot, and you're moving it forward, the world wants you to not have it because it wants to be balanced. But if you don't want A, B, and C, or think about how do I go the other way around, the world will try to create balance and get you A, B, and C. Wild stuff. Let that sink in for a second.

Lottie Bazley: There you go. This is a real mic-drop moment. And the fact that you've managed to bring physics into it, which is something that I admitted I didn't think was possible, but absolutely, that's a super example. Thank you so much.

Pinaki Kathiari: There's a physics law behind that one, and I can't come up with it. I forgot it off the top of my head, but I'll probably drop you a post later.

Lottie Bazley: Oh, my gosh. You're asking the wrong person. Absolutely. Well, thank you so, so much for joining us today, Pinaki. I've genuinely learned a lot from this conversation. So, I'm sure that listeners will have some great nuggets to take away. Before I let you go, quickly, can you let the people know where they can connect with you, learn more about Local Wisdom, or tune into the podcast?

Pinaki Kathiari: Absolutely, yes. How much time you got? I'm just kidding. Connect with me on LinkedIn. You'll find Pinaki Kathiari. There's not many of me out there. Find Local Wisdom. We're localwisdom.com. We're like spackle for comms teams. So, if you have a crack in talent, technology, strategy, or execution, we can fill that and make it stronger. And wherever you listen to podcasts, just search, Why Does It Feel So Wrong To Be Human At Work? And you'll find us there. Thank you, Lottie, and thank you, Staffbase.

Lottie Bazley: Of course. Thank you so much. I have been Lottie Bazley. And I hope you've enjoyed this podcast, this episode of Aspire to Inspire. Be sure to join us again soon. Thank you so much.

Pinaki Kathiari: Thank you. Be well, everybody.