Nobody Believes You: Building Trust & Credibility in Leadership with Author Jenni Field

David Burnand: Hi, everybody. I’m David Burnand. I’m the Chief Marketing and Communications Officer at Staffbase. Today, we’re absolutely honored to have Jenni Field. Jenni is an acclaimed business communications strategist. She’s an international speaker, and she’s an author of not one, but two insightful books on communications.

The first one was “Influential Internal Communication,” and then her brand new book, “Nobody Believes You: Become a Leader People Will Follow.” We’re absolutely so thrilled to have you with us, Jenni and pleased that you could be here today.

Jenni Field: Thank you for having me. It’s lovely to be here.

David Burnand: Oh, no, it’s great. I think, this is certainly one of the best books that I’ve read recently on communications, really enjoyed it.

Jenni Field: Thank you.

David Burnand: Yes, I’ve got tons out of it. In this episode, we want people to take some practical things out of this particular chat. We mentioned that what we’d like people to get from it is, get some practical ideas for building trust and credibility, and some of those real stories of leadership transformation, and then just how to create that authentic communication and connection, and really inspire followership, which I guess, really, was one of the big things, that area of authenticity was probably one of the biggest things that I took from your book, actually, because it’s full of those little — It’s full of tips.

Honestly, as I went through, I was writing little notes to myself down on things that I think, “Well, I should probably be doing some of these things.” It’s really fantastic. In the book, obviously, you dive into this idea of followership and I was intrigued as to what really inspired you to write this book in the first place. And what’s the core essence of what you’d like people to take away from it?

Jenni Field: Sure. I wrote the book, because I’ve worked in communication for over 20 years. And there’s always a huge conversation about communications professionals having a seat at the table, about the lack of value people see in communication, and about the ask for communicators to do so much involved in organizational culture. When actually the root cause of the issue is the leadership

And I just got to the point where I thought, “We need to talk about this.” Because if we don’t talk about this, we’re going to waste a lot of money and effort in communication activity, when we’re not really addressing the root cause of the issue and that is leadership communication and behaviors. That’s the reason why I wrote the book, because, actually, when you look at all of those challenges that come up for me, when I’m working with clients, trying to fix communication, it always comes back to the leadership team. And so that was part of the reason for writing it. The other part was that leaders have been bombarded for the last five years with the need to be more authentic, to have more empathy, to be more human, to be more vulnerable. And some of those things are misguided. So I don’t think authenticity is what we want leaders to be. Also, some of them are just really big words that don’t mean anything.

And that’s not helpful, either, when you’re trying to lead a company, or a team, and do the tasks that are also involved in that. We don’t expand on it enough. We just throw big words around, and hope they stick. So that was the other reason for writing it, was to do something that was quite practical, like you were saying, so that you can take it away, and go, “Oh, actually, I can do this. I can do this tomorrow. And I can start to build some of these practices into my leadership.” That was really the root of it, was that trying to give people that practical advice, and also address this root cause of the issue in organizations.

David Burnand: When you were going through and writing the book, and researching the book, what’s the one big surprising thing in the area of leadership comms that you that you pulled out of it? Because, obviously, you start the book with this idea of, “Okay, I’ve spotted this issue, I want to write about this issue.” But then writing a book is a process and then, you pick up different things as you go through it. Was there something specific that you picked up that you thought, “I didn’t think about that when I started.”?

Jenni Field: Yes, and the book is research based. So I spent about five years reading and exploring leadership, understanding what empathy really meant, understanding trust, and all of those big words. And that led me to create nine traits, as I called them of credible leadership. That’s where I started. These nine were what I thought the book would be. And I thought, “Well, I’ve got to test this.”

So I went and did some research with those nine and I did research in different ways. So had— Really it was an online survey with leaders, and also followers. But I did do a couple of sessions with groups to explore them. And it was from there that I realized that some things I thought were going to be very important, like flexibility, and people taking action, were less important than some others, and other things were more important than others.

So the language that people use about why they follow someone, and they use things like supportive, “I was supported by my leader,” which is why supportive is one of the eight, because it’s now eight practices of credible leadership. And some of those other ones sit underneath them. So I never intended to create a credibility wheel. I never intended to have eight practices within subsets underneath, it sort of built as I was going.

And once I’d got that structure, it became much easier to see where the stories would fit, and the advice would fit into that framework. But it was a surprise to me what was important. And the research also looked at how men and women felt about these and there was some interesting stuff in there about, actually, men valuing empathy more highly than women.

And I didn’t expect to see that. That was one thing that I thought would be the other way around. So there was a few surprises along the way. I think the biggest thing for me in all the reading was that, we don’t talk about credibility very much in leadership. There’s a lot of leadership models that are talked about. But actually, when you start to look at it, and when I was writing the book, this is almost the bit that sits underneath all of those others, that you can’t be a servant leader without being credible.

So it’s almost like that going — The prequel to all the other bits, that if you can get this right, then all the other bits follow on from there. That was a bit of a surprise that there hadn’t been that much. There’s been some work in it, but certainly not much in a post-COVID pandemic world. And that was the bit that’s important as well.

David Burnand: I think that’s really interesting, actually, because it — Servant leadership’s almost like a style with which we deliver our leadership, isn’t it? But I guess, without having that credibility, it’s like you’re trying to build a house on sand, and sooner or later, people smell that.

Jenni Field: Yes. Oh, yes, absolutely. You can serve, but if you’re not capable, then it’s going to just sink. There’s only so much you can dine out on that sort of trait and that sort of approach. That’s why you’ve got to have all of the eight practices in some form, in order to balance that credibility, and get that followership.

David Burnand: Yes. And without wanting to jump to the end of the book, before we go through the rest of it, I did particularly like at the end of the book, you have this — It’s almost like a mathematical table with all the different traits and the outcomes. I love that. That was one of my favorite things. What’s the outcome if you miss a trait? Yes, it’s great because people —  you can read that and feel like, “Okay, if I don’t have that, then this is what the results will be.”

Jenni Field: Yeah. And that has to be a conversation, because so many of these are things that people will go, “I don’t need to do that. People are fine.” Certainly, from how people have been trained to lead in the past, some of these things won’t come naturally. And if you don’t have an outcome or a reason, it becomes very easy to dismiss that. But actually, if you want to improve your employee engagement scores, which so many leaders want to do, then you have to work on your trustworthiness. That’s the problem. And I think once you can start to talk about it in those ways, it makes it a much easier conversation about the communication and the culture, and employee experience, and all of those things.

David Burnand: Yes, absolutely. Speaking of the whole idea of credibility, was there a specific example, might be from the book, but just generally from all the work you do with leaders? Do you have one particularly memorable example of someone who took your advice around this whole concept of building credibility, and then really saw their followership grow as a result of that?

Jenni Field: Unfortunately, I’ve probably got more examples of the opposite. But I’ve got a few where people say — One of the eight is likable. And that’s the distinction between being liked, and being likable. And it’s an important distinction to make as a leader, because you don’t want to be liked, because you won’t always be liked, because you’ll be making decisions that people won’t like. But you want to be likable. So you want to have charisma, you want to be lighthearted, you want to be nice to be around, all those things. And I was working with a leader who had gone up through the organization, and they were really stuck in this, “I just want people to like me.” And we had to really unpack that through — we did some one-to-one coaching and things to really explore, where is that coming from?

But also, is that really important? What do you really want to achieve in your career? And actually, being okay with letting some of those relationships change, some of them go completely, and being okay with that, and making that distance, and taking away some of that really personal connection that was in there, that was absolutely right in a more junior role. Actually, now, we’ve got to start to change things, and recontract those relationships. And actually, I’ve watched that person now go from being a managing director in the UK to global leadership, which has been amazing to watch, because —  There’s other things that have been at play there. But being able to just unlock that ability to take away this need to be liked, can just unlock quite a lot of that ability to really step into the space that you want to step into. There’s always going to be something. It might be one thing that you can just tweak, and it will just allow you to really fly, which is important.

David Burnand: Yes, I love that subtle difference between liked and likable, because, I think we often talk about, are you a leader? You can be a leader, can you be a leader, and be liked at the same time? And I think that for a lot of people, as they go through their career, it’s almost like crossing a high wire, somehow, where you’re trying to navigate a really difficult — But it’s a difficult path to navigate, isn’t it?

Jenni Field: Yes.

David Burnand: And It starts with your initial, maybe at first, elevation to maybe become the team leader from within a group that you were maybe a member of previously, through to — It gets more and more complex as you go up the organization.

Jenni Field: Yes, and it’s also remembering what we’re like as human beings. And I think we don’t talk about that enough. We want to be liked, we want to belong, we want to be part of that group and team, we don’t want to feel left out. And when you’re in a leadership role, you’re often not part of that team. You will lead a team, but you aren’t necessarily in that team, and you’re in the leadership team, which is a different team, but you’re not in that.

So it’s finding your place in all of that, and where that fits, and actually where your peer group is. And I’ve heard some people say, “As a leader, I’ve been given feedback that I share too much with my team.” And that’s really common, because you spend most of your time with them. But you have to watch that, because that impacts and the unintended consequence of that can be quite damaging in some ways. So it’s figuring out where that team is for you, where you do want to be liked, because that’s your friends and the people that you want to be liked by, and where just likeable is a fine place to be.

David Burnand: Yes, definitely. One of the things you talk about in some of the earlier chapters of the book, is really around small actions. And you talk about how small actions can really make or break this whole area of trustworthiness. Can you give me just a couple of examples for people of things that they could just check themselves on, as they’re trying to establish that early leadership?

Jenni Field: Yes, and trustworthiness and integrity are quite similar. You can play around a little bit with techniques for both of these, the outcomes of not having them are different, but you can play around with some different techniques. Ultimately, it’s about being honest and transparent, and keeping your word and taking action, all of those things, we can blend into that.

And if you’re struggling with that, or if you feel that people are saying that, “We just don’t trust this person,” or, “We’re not really engaged,” if you’re seeing those things, then the things you want to focus in on, are more face-to-face time with your team, that’s important. We build trust by being in-person with each other. That’s not always possible so it has to be video, but there has to be a human connection.

We can also just think about being realistic about what you’re saying, which sounds quite easy. But the drip that I’m talking about, is things where people will say, “My door’s always open,” which is often something people would say about having this open door policy, “You can come and talk to me,” but you’re not in the office, or you’re not actually around and therefore, people don’t believe that you are. So there’s a disconnect between what you’re saying, and then what you’re doing, and that’s what starts to break things. So it’s just being intentional about what you’re promising people. And also, being intentional about what’s realistic for you. You know, you’re busy, there’s lots to juggle in that position. So if you want to have that intention of, “I want to make time for people,” then put it in your calendar, build it out, go have a coffee with people, make that time, but make sure that you’re communicating that, and being realistic about what you’re able to do. Because the last thing you want to do is over promise, and under deliver. And that is what will start to break that trust. 

I think the other thing is context so it depends on what you’re going through. If you’re going through some significant change, mergers, acquisitions, culture shift, you need to really dial up some of this trust activity, which is, making this time and space for people, being present with them, listening to them without judgment, all of those things. If you’re not making that space and that time, then people won’t be able to find that connection with you, in order to build that trust. And that’s really important. It’s a lot to do with time and intentionality, and being realistic. And sometimes having someone that can call you out on that is quite helpful. Not necessarily, a coach or a consultant, but as a team, discuss what’s realistic, what’s not. “Can we really do this? Is this possible?” And give people permission to say, “You’re never going to do that,” which is sometimes quite helpful, because we always think we will do better than we are. We always think we will make better choices than we will. You know, we have this belief that we are better than we are, which is fabulous. 

David Burnand: Yes, definitely. It’s like comms teams, we always think we’re going to spend more budget than we actually do.

Jenni Field: Yes. 

David Burnand: One of the things that you just mentioned there, which I think is quite a challenge for leaders these days, particularly, post-COVID, is that you mentioned remote. Remote is such a hot topic for so many companies right now, isn’t it? You have some companies who are saying, “Get people back in the office. We want people in the office five days a week. We want to see them here.” At the other extreme, there are still some companies that are saying, “No, we established remote work, and that’s the way we’re going to stay.” And then, I suppose there’s the rest of us.

Jenni Field: A messy middle. 

David Burnand: We’re in the middle. We’re juggling and trying to work out exactly what the right thing to do is. And I think a lot of the things that we’ve all benefited from, including hiring great talent from different places, then in this post-COVID world, we’re trying to work out, okay, what’s the best thing now for everybody to establish connection? But just as you’ve worked with different companies since COVID, what are some of the things that you’ve picked up on, in terms of, I guess, the must-have skills for leaders that relate to everything that you wrote about in the book?

Jenni Field: It’s so true, there’s still this messy middle. The must-have skills for me are to bring some alignment together in that leadership team about what this is going to look like and why. If you’ve got a good set of values, that makes it very easy to make some of these decisions. If you don’t have values and behaviors, it makes it much harder, because they should be your anchor point for those decisions.

Where we see success, is where there is, again, intention behind what’s happening. So I’ve seen situations where people have said, “We’re going back to the office three days a week.” It’s the same three days for everybody. And in those days, we’re going to do things together as a team, as an organization. And therefore, there’s a reason to come together, there is a sense of community, there is that sense of belonging, that collaboration that they’re working on, that will all link to the values of that organization, rather than just, you pick three days and you pick three. There’s time being given to this, to invest in this time together.

I think the other thing where it works very well is, where you’re clear on the outcomes, not the performative action. So I have spoken to some people recently where they were saying, “Oh, we want people to stay after the town hall, so we get food in, and we want people to hang around. But they’re not. This is a problem.” And I said, “Well, what time is the town hall?” They said, “Oh, about four o’clock.” And I said, “So people are taking the food and just going home.” I was like, “I would absolutely take the food and go home.” That’s not — This has become the equivalent of what was, ”We need a poster.” We now need people to stay in the office. It’s the new one of those.

And actually, what do you want them to do? Because it’s not just sit in the office at my desk. That’s not what you want me to do. Why do you want — Why? Is it because you want them to collaborate and talk to each other, and find that community, and get to know each other? Great. Then, let’s do lunch together, and make it something that people bring in different dishes, or have a guest speaker at lunch. And then, you’ve got the town hall. Make it a day of stuff, so that there’s more reasons to come together. And then, if they go home at half past 4:00, that’s okay, because they’ve been in the office. People want to get home. The commute is fine, but it’s never smooth sailing a lot of the time. It’s coming back to the outcome that you want to achieve. And I think, if you don’t do that, you’re just putting posters on toilet doors again. And that’s not what we’re here to do.

David Burnand: Yes, definitely. Actually, you just reminded me, we filmed a commercial earlier in the year, where the CEO comes into an empty town hall, and that is literally— His closing line is, “Maybe we should have offered free pizza.”

Jenni Field: Yes. 

David Burnand: “Why didn’t you come to my town hall?”

Jenni Field: Yes, exactly.

David Burnand: “Because you didn’t give me a good reason to.”

Jenni Field: Yes. That’s, “Hang on a minute, I’ve told you to be back, you should be back.” But I do think there is a lot of benefit to being very clear about your approach as an organization. I don’t like this narrative that there is a right and wrong in terms of, we should all be given the ability to work at home, or work in a hybrid way. This sort of, it’s really awful that they’re making people come back to the office. I don’t agree with that.

There is a huge percentage of the workforce who have to go to a location to do their job. The people that have that ability to choose, is actually quite a small number of the workforce. And actually, for a lot of people, they want that distinction between home and work, or they don’t have that space to be able to work at home. So I think there is something really positive about organizations really setting their stall in, “This is what we’re doing and it’s okay if that’s not for you. But this is what we need and this is why we’re making this decision. And this is what we need in order to work very well as an organization.” I think there’s a huge positive in that, which I think is also important.

David Burnand: Yes, I think you’re right on that. Just that level of clarity that you can bring to people, I think makes a huge difference. Nonetheless, despite the return to office, in many cases, there is still a huge amount of remote work happening. And one of the challenges of dealing with remote work is, as a leader, is recognizing when you have to deal with a sensitive situation. 

I was wondering if there are any specific ideas, or thoughts that you have, or phrases that you use, or advise people to use when you’re dealing with more sensitive topics but you’ve got to deal with them on video, because you don’t have a choice. Your team is scattered over three countries, regardless of whether you’re in the office, or they’re in the office, somebody isn’t together, right? You’re not you’re not co-located. What have been your learnings, and your ideas in that area?

Jenni Field: It depends on what the sensitive topics are, because there are some things that you do need to get people together for. I think, if you’re looking at — Well, when you say sensitive topics, I’m going to ask you a question now. This is fun. What’s in your mind when you’re thinking of that? What’s the thing that’s coming to mind? Whether it’s stuff you’ve experienced, or stuff you’ve heard about? Is there anything specific there? Because that will help me really dive into that.

David Burnand: I think there is two things that would come to mind for me. One would be where you’ve got a significant organizational change, so an internal factor. And that internal factor plays out on people, has implications for people, whether because of M&A, or whatever the reason is. I guess that would be one thing. Then, another thing would be a broader thing, if I think about society, maybe be a broader thing in terms of things that happen in society, in the news, or whatever, where people feel it, and they carry it, for whatever reason. Whether it’s conflict, or things along those lines, where they actually sometimes have a genuine personal impact on people. It’s like, “Do I avoid this topic? Do I speak to this topic? What do I do?”

Jenni Field: Okay, fine. We’ll do a bit of organizational change, and then a bit of more societal, political stuff, and how we navigate that. When you — If it’s organizational change, I’ve just recently written about this, actually, then we have to deal, we have to communicate, we still have to communicate through the layers of the organization. No matter what technology you have, the role of a line manager in communication and leadership is so important for employees. If you’re not helping them, and equipping them with the tools, that makes it very, very difficult for us to communicate change effectively. So if you’re doing that in a remote way, you have to do that on a video call, and it has to be cameras on.

And it’s okay to say, “We need everyone to have their cameras on for this.” So I work with some clients where we did focus groups actually with them, and no one had their cameras on for any of the focus groups, which was fascinating to me from a cultural perspective. Also, for me, would be something I would be looking to change, because actually, we should have cameras on if we’re on a video call.

So those sorts of things are important. I want to be able to see everybody, I want this to be a conversation, make space for questions, it’s making space, and giving people different options, and different ways of being able to communicate. If we look at a credible leader, would be someone who’s supportive, who has empathy, who’s trustworthy, who’s vulnerable, all of those things need to come forward in an online space.

And that can happen by giving people different options, and ways to ask questions. You might not want to ask me on this call, but here’s my email address, you can email me, and I’ll come back to you, that’s fine. And doing that, not just saying you’re going to do it, and then getting your assistant to do it, you have to do that. So it’s creating space to communicate effectively with everybody that’s involved, and following up, and then being consistent with that, and being consistent in a way that is very timely, and people know what’s happening.

That isn’t any different if you were doing change, and everybody was in the office, you would be doing a town hall in person, you would then have a space for them to do Q&A, it’s the same, but you have to do more of that work as a leader. You can’t just give that over to project teams and things like that. And so I think that space has to be created to manage people. And I think we forget that that’s a big part of your job as a leader, is the time that is required to manage people. And so you have to make space for that.

If it’s things that are more political or societal, then a lot of that comes back to your values as an organization, and what’s relevant and appropriate for you. But it’s also about making sure that you’re, again, your line managers have been given the skills to know how to navigate that, because actually, it’s often just as simple as asking someone if they’re okay.

It doesn’t — You don’t need to have huge statements and big answers, but if there’s something happening, and there’s people in your team that could be impacted by that, then just say to them, “I know this is happening. I just want to check in and see how everybody’s feeling.” Do it as a one-to-one, if that’s better and easier. You know your team more than I do. Do them in one-to-one conversations. But we also have to remember that we can make a lot of assumptions around things. If there is something happening, if we take things like there were some riots in the UK, and it was more around race, than it was anything else, it would be easy to assume that all of the people that weren’t of that race, were not affected by that, whereas actually, everybody is affected by that, because people have friends and relatives, and we’re human beings, and we have empathy. 

And it’s important to give everyone that space to say, “Yes, I’m actually really worried about this or that,” or whatever it is. It’s just asking people how they are, but not for the sake of it. And that’s where the integrity, and the trustworthiness comes in. If you’re just doing it to tick a box, then don’t bother, because it’s performative, it’s not kind, and it’s not credible leadership. You have to do it with that intention, and that genuineness of, “I really want to know how you are. And if you’re not okay, I know as a manager what I can do to support you, because I understand that, and I’m aware of that in this organization.” And that’s — I think we get stuck in. “What do we say? What are the right words?” But just asking someone, “How are you doing?” It’s that easy.

David Burnand: Yes, I think one of the things that you — or I suppose one of the phrases that I would use to summarize what you’ve said is “Follow through.”

Jenni Field: Yes.

David Burnand: You just — Everything that you talked about, which I think is just fantastic advice, is really about the credibility, and the trustworthiness, and everything else only really comes if you follow through. Don’t just say it, do it. You actually have to do it.

Jenni Field: Yes! Technology has come on so far in our lives, that we’re always trying to shortcut stuff. How can we make stuff quicker? How can I meal prep on a Sunday, so I don’t have to cook in a week? How can I get this done? How can I do this? And I don’t know how that’s happened. I read a really good book this year called Slow Productivity by Cal Newport, which is all about this bizarreness that we’ve got about productivity, which we can’t actually quantify in an office-based environment. But why are we in such a hurry? Why has this become something we need to do? And actually, as a leader, that time is so important. Organizations are people. If you don’t have people, you don’t really have an organization.

So you have to make that time to write “thank you” cards, or send the email, or follow up with people. Those relationships are important. You have the duty as the leader in a position of power, to lead how that relationship should be shaped, and be in charge of that, really, to make sure that it is where you need it to be. And stop thinking, “Right, tick, that’s done. What can I go on to next?” Stay there, stay in that moment with them, and talk to them, and be with them and make that space.

David Burnand: I think that’s great. Great advice. Even if it’s uncomfortable and even if you don’t have all the answers in that moment, it doesn’t matter.

Jenni Field: Yes, it’s fine.

David Burnand: No, I think you’re absolutely — I think that’s fantastic advice. One of the one of the things that I’ve often seen people struggle with, and to a greater or lesser degree, depending on their personality, is when you are put into a leadership position, and especially, actually in tech, it happens a lot. You’re potentially a more quieter, and more introverted leader.  I’m curious about what your experience has been there as well, in terms of people that you’ve worked with? Have there been things that you’ve picked up on about what those types of leaders can do to really build followership? I suppose, to a degree, combat some of that imposter syndrome that comes with not seeing other people project confidence, strength, but maybe not feeling that you can do it yourself.

Jenni Field: Yes, and it’s — I write about introverts in the book. That’s how I always know when someone’s read it when I’m talking to them, because it’s the bit that people sort of go, “Oh, this is — actually, what you’re saying is, you don’t have permission to be a poor communicator, if you’re an introvert.” And that’s what I have experienced. I have seen people say, “Oh, they’re not very good at communicating, but it’s just because they’re an introvert.” I’m like, “Hang on a minute, Barack Obama’s an introvert. He’s pretty good at speaking.”

David Burnand: He managed, yes. 

Jenni Field: Yes. And this is why I don’t like authenticity as well, is that it allows you to behave in a certain way that actually isn’t justified. And if we look at introvert versus extrovert, that’s become such a big phrase, and such a big thing. But it’s about where you get your energy from and actually, things like confidence, self-esteem, imposter syndrome, they’re all different elements of your personality, and your behavior, and your traits, and all of those things. So we have to know those things about us. And we have to work on those. Imposter syndrome is more your environment than actually you, that there’s a bit of a distinction there. But if you find that you are someone who does identify as an introvert, and therefore, you want to listen more in conversations, you don’t want to jump in with a solution, you need that reflective time. That’s absolutely fine. But you can still learn the skills to be able to communicate effectively, you just might do it in a slightly different way to someone who is standing up there, waving their arms about like I’m always doing. It’s just a different communication style. Neither of those are right or wrong, it’s just learning what your style is, and not comparing yourself to someone else, and thinking, “I must be more like them.” Because if everyone was more like that person, then people — If everyone was like me, it’d be exhausting, right?

So you’ve got to have that balance, and certainly, a balance in a team that allows it to really function really, really well. I always say, comparison is the thief of joy, if you’re looking at other people and thinking, “I need to be more like that,” don’t do that. Find your communication style. You might need to prep more, you might need more time, you might need more research, you might need some support, you might want to rehearse, all of those things are fine. But you have to build that in, so that when you show up, you’re showing up in a way where people see you as capable, they find you trustworthy and they see your vision, they find you inspiring. They feel that you have got passion for what you’re doing. That’s important, but being passionate and inspiring can come across in very different ways, and is interpreted in very different ways from different people. So it’s just really doing that work on yourself and I talk about that quite a lot in the book, like you have to know yourself, and work on that to be able to delve into which of the bits that you want to really explore.

David Burnand: You’ve made some really good points there. As I was reading the book, and I was also reflecting on this whole idea of introversion. It’s like the fact that, if you’re an introvert, you can sometimes look at people, and you look at other leaders, or other managers, your colleagues, and you think, “Everybody else is an extrovert. It’s just me. I’m the only introvert.” Whereas the reality is, there are loads of us who are introverts, and we just get better at finding our groove. And I suppose, to a degree, we do — Some of us do get to the point where we do mask it effectively. I know, in my own case, there are times where there were certain things, situations that I know I dread. And it’s those things that make me realize, I am still quite introverted at heart. But then you just learn to deal with it, right?

Jenni Field: Yes. And you learn to deal with your energy. People will see me on a stage, or on a podcast with you and go, “Oh, she’s such an extrovert and just out there,” but actually, I’ve got huge introverted tendencies, you know I manage my energy. And that’s really important as a leader, because you’ve got to be able to show up at the right times, and have the energy when it’s needed, if it’s change, or whatever it is.

So I do think that my weekends are quite quiet. If my week’s very busy, that later on, I’ll be just relaxing on the sofa. I might go for a massage, or for a walk, or, yes, it doesn’t matter. There’s always things built around those high energy moments for me that help me manage that. And this comes back to knowing yourself, because it’s just knowing where you need to get your energy, and how you need to replenish it. I talk of being a leader, you have to know that, because people are relying on you, people are looking up. And if you’re looking up, then we’re all doomed. So you’ve got to look after yourself. That’s important, so that you can lead everybody else.

David Burnand: Yes. Managing your energy into those moments where you know, “Okay, spotlight’s going to be on me, whether I like it or not, it’s coming,” so, yes.

Jenni Field: Yes, so what do I need to do?

David Burnand: Yes, what do I need to do? Yes. I was listening to Boy George actually, a couple of days ago, talk about this. And he actually said, he talks himself into — He wakes up in the morning and goes, “Today is going to be great.” He convinced himself, or he’s going in to record something and he’s like, “This is going to be great.” And gets himself into that mindset, because he knows, he said, “Some people don’t need to do it, but I need to do it.” I thought that was actually really good advice. Talk yourself into it, yes.

Jenni Field: Yes. It’s amazing what you can do. I do it. I was in the gym recently and do CrossFit, and we were doing loads of skipping and burpees, and all this stuff. And this guy next to me was going, “This is horrible, this is awful, I’m having a horrible time.” I was going, “I’m having the best time.” He’s going, “Really?” I was like, “No, but if I sit there and do what you’re doing, it’s going to be a horrible 20 minutes. Whereas if I tell myself, ‘This is lovely, this is the best start to a Monday I’ve ever had,’ then my brain won’t — It’ll be fine. But if I start doing this negative talk, then I’ll find loads of ways to prove that and that’s not helpful.” So I’m a big fan of, “It’s going to be a great day.”

David Burnand: Yes, definitely. The power of positive thinking, even if you’re an introvert, and you’ve got to bring yourself into these communications moments. I love that. Jenni, before we wrap up, it’s been just such an absolute honor and pleasure to talk to you. But before we wrap up, if there’s one thing that you think people should take from the book, maybe you’re going to say, “Buy the book.” In which case, totally fine.

Jenni Field: Always.

David Burnand: I would definitely say, “Buy the book.” Because it is a great book. But if there’s one thing that you would share with people and say, “This is something actionable above all other things that you could do and it will immediately help you to build that trust, and improve communication with your team.” What would that one thing be?

Jenni Field: That one thing, or sort of two, would be to be really clear about where you’re asking them to go with you. As a leader of a team, a function organization, you are striving towards something. There’s a shared objective you want to achieve. Know what that is, and then give people time to share that, and talk about that. But spend the time to get really clear on that. And if that means, we just need to stop for a day, and sit in a room, and figure this out, that’s fine. But you have to know that, because if you don’t know that, you won’t inspire them. You won’t have that passion behind what you’re doing, and you won’t have that clarity for them to know why they’re doing what they’re doing. And if you don’t have that, people will just be apathetic and they won’t do it. And that’s the last thing you want in organizations where we want people to move, and we want to move at pace, certainly going into the future years. So that’s the one for me.

David Burnand: Excellent. Amazing. Jenni, thank you so much. Where can our leaders connect with you? Where can they find more of your work? Obviously, Amazon, but where else?

Jenni Field: Yes. The book’s on Amazon. The website is redefiningcomms.com, and you can buy the book direct from there. You can buy hardback, which I’ll sign. And there’s my podcast. I’m on LinkedIn, and Instagram as well. I’m very accessible, and very happy to chat about all things credible leadership. If anybody needs any help.

David Burnand: Amazing. Jenni, thank you so much again and we really appreciate you taking the time to join us today on Aspire to Inspire.

Jenni Field: Lovely. Thank you for having me.