Leadership Is Broken: Charlotte Otter's 3 Steps to Fixing It with Reputation

Brian Tomlinson: Welcome to the Aspire to Inspire Podcast. I'm Brian Tomlinson, the head of content at Staffbase. Today's guest is Charlotte Otter, best-selling author of "We Need New Leaders," executive coach, speaker, and the former head of executive and employee communications at SAP.

After more than a decade helping global tech leaders tell their stories, Charlotte distilled her expertise into the Reputation 360 coaching program, a powerful framework that helps leaders from diverse backgrounds own their story, build influence, and lead with impact. In this episode, we're going to explore why leadership needs a refresh and how reputation shapes influence, and why Charlotte believes outsiders often make the best leaders. Charlotte, welcome to the show.

Charlotte Otter: Oh, Brian, thank you so much for having me on. It's a pleasure to be here.

Brian Tomlinson: Absolutely, happy to have you. Let's jump right in. You open your book saying that we are in a leadership crisis. Tell me a little bit about that. What does that mean to you?

Charlotte Otter: The leadership crisis for me is two things. First of all, we're in a crisis of leaders. The leaders that we have today are not the leaders that the world needs. And one of the things I say in the start of the book is it takes one leader to have ripple effects for the whole world. And we're seeing that right now. We're seeing with the American election, could have gone two ways. It's gone a particular way. And since then we're seeing DEI programs being pulled away, being reneged on, being removed, and that having a ripple effect throughout the globe.

So that crisis of leaders creates a crisis for leaders. So business leaders have to operate in that context. If a business leader or a CEO has a DEI program, they have to make a decision in the context in which they're doing their business. Does it adhere with our values to hold onto that program? Does it adhere with our values to change it? Does it adhere with our values to get rid of it completely? So the crisis of leaders creates a crisis for leaders in which the CEOs of our time have to operate in an increasingly challenging context.

Brian Tomlinson: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's something that we see and experience every day right now. In that context, I loved the fact that you talked about this study that talks about the incompetence of, let's say, male leaders, so to speak. That took me down a rabbit hole, I'll tell you that. Maybe we can talk about that a little bit because I found that really fascinating about the way that we view leadership. And I think that's very much something that comes socially, that you almost grow up expecting a leader to be that certain way. Maybe talk a little bit about how we need to shift away from that and what that could look like.

Charlotte Otter: So, you know, the current model that we have in our heads is, as you say, it's so ingrained. It's almost part of our neuroscience, what we believe a leader looks and sounds like, and we recognize it without even realizing that we're recognizing it. And the book is called "Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders?" And it's by an academic called Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic. What he says is we privilege confidence over competence. So we privilege the loud leader over the competent leader because that loud leader speaks to the neuroscience, that sense we have in our brains of what a leader is that we don't even question. 

That was the starting point for my book really was to say the confident leader is not necessarily the leader that we need right now, that the archetype needs to shift. And so that was my inspiration to go and interview over 40 leaders from diverse backgrounds, diverse identities, and underrepresented minorities to explore their leadership experience to see what difference looked like, what leading in a different way might mean. As I started that journey on that pathway, I didn't know what the answer would be. I didn't have a strong thesis in my head that I was seeking to prove. I was very open-minded and sought to discover from the people that I interviewed what new leadership might look like.

Brian Tomlinson: It really spoke to me actually. Because I remember probably around 10, 12 years ago, someone saying to me that, particularly when I moved to Germany, they said, "Your style doesn't fit to the German work culture." And that really spoke to me because it's like, okay what does that mean? I can't change who I am. I want to be who I am and lead the way I think that we should lead right? So I'm curious, tell me a little bit about what direction that took for you then. Because I believe that that will help so many people, especially the quiet leaders out there, really feel seen.

Charlotte Otter: Yes, for sure. And my experience was quite similar to yours. Leadership came to me quite late being in my mid 40s. And I felt like an outsider in the environment I was in. I was a creative in tech. I was a South African in Germany. I did feel like an outsider. Also discovered during COVID that I was an introvert, something that I didn't know about. So a lot of people say extroverts make the best leaders while I think that introverts have a depth that is maybe sometimes unrecognized.

So the process really was, when I was interviewing other leaders, was to try and identify the qualities and the experiences that help people lead well, particularly if we go back to context, in an environment where we have a burnout epidemic, we have leaders trying to mandate a return to office after employees proving extremely successfully that they could be more than productive when working from home.

I feel like there's this battle between leaders today and employees. And there's a discomfort and there's a friction. And the question that I was asking myself is, what qualities do these new leaders have that might help them lead better and change work from a place that's uncomfortable, that causes burnout, where there's friction, to a place that people are actually happy to go to? Because there's a sense that work isn't really working.

Brian Tomlinson: That's definitely a good phrase, good way to put it, is work isn't really working. I think in such a way, it's somehow we have to do better. I'm curious, how do you think diverse leaders, how do you think that they approach leadership differently that the typical archetype could learn from? 

Charlotte Otter: First I'd like to just talk about my personal definition of diversity. For me, it's not only about race and gender. I interviewed leaders who are neurodiverse, leaders who have some sort of physical diversity, leaders who are diverse in age, leaders who are leading with menopause, as I did, I was in perimenopause when I became a leader, leaders who are leading with autoimmune diseases, leaders who are LGBTQIA, so extremely broad.

And the commonalities that I found were that because leaders of diverse identities, backgrounds, and underrepresented minorities have experienced obstacles in their lives, those obstacles have made them go on some form of a journey of personal self-knowledge, understanding themselves really, really well. And that self-knowledge and those obstacles give them empathy with others.

If you are a leader and doors have always opened for you, you're of the leadership norm or the leadership archetype, doors have just swung open for you your entire life, you learn to think it's because of your own brilliance. You learn to think that the meritocracy is just pushing me to the top of the pile automatically because I'm just so naturally brilliant. But what I learned was that the obstacles and the challenges that leaders from diverse backgrounds have tend to make them more thoughtful, more empathetic, and generally more inspiring leaders.

Brian Tomlinson: I can see how that works, it's something that sometimes culturally is within you, but also, if you have to fight your way through, you can appreciate that as well. And like you said, it gives you that empathy that we need today really, because when you have this crisis, so to speak, it's something that you have to have empathy for. Because everywhere, you feel like things are diverging, and of course then you need to be able to take care of people on both sides.

Charlotte Otter: Yeah, may I jump in?

Brian Tomlinson: Yeah, sure.

Charlotte Otter: So an example that comes to mind, these leaders often have a lot of empathy for people who don't have comfort with diversity, equity, and inclusion. I spoke to one leader in the UK. And she says it's a trifecta when I come along. So she's black, she's Muslim, and she's an immigrant from Senegal to the UK. And she said to me what she does if somebody enacts a microaggression at work, and she said it's usually through ignorance. People aren't necessarily setting out to hurt somebody else it's usually through ignorance. What she does because of her empathy, because of her struggles, she doesn't shame that person, she doesn't call them out in front of the team.

She doesn't even make a surprise look on her face. But after the meeting, or she takes some private time with that person one-on-one and just asks very gentle questions; why did you say that? What experience have you had in your life that makes you think that? Here's my experience. This is why words like that hurt me or people who look like me. And through her empathy, she's able to change the culture of her own organization. And I thought that was such a beautiful example of living empathy out loud and doing it in a gentle way so you can break . . . to change culture and bring everybody along.

Brian Tomlinson: I agree with that because aggression doesn't help. 

Charlotte Otter: No.

Brian Tomlinson: Right? And if we want to bring people with us, a hug goes a lot a lot longer way than a fist. And I really, really liked that example just in terms of being able to bring people closer for them to understand. Because I always grew up and figured, what happens if you have somebody who grew up in a jungle? It's very, very extreme, but they may not have the same perspective on the world as you do. The only way to be able to see eye to eye is through conversation, right? And also without aggression, just simply educating. So I really, really love that approach.

Charlotte Otter: Yeah, it's beautiful. It's truly lovely, what she does.

Brian Tomlinson: Maybe let's jump into something that you go deeper into in the book, and that's reputation. Nowadays you work one on one with emerging and established leaders with your Reputation 360 program. Could you maybe walk us through your approach and the skills that you help people to sharpen right, and any traits that they need to enhance or soften to improve their leadership style and to improve and start to build their reputation?

Charlotte Otter: Yeah, so my Reputation 360 program is based on my experience leading executive comms at SAP, and also being an individual contributor. During my time at SAP, I worked with a dozen different leaders. And what I do now in the Reputation 360 is very similar to the early months when I started working with an executive. First of all, getting to know them. I did quite a lot of shadowing. I listened to their stories. I tried to find the places where they excelled in their communication so that we could work on those. I also tried to find the places where they needed help.

So the Reputation 360 now is a program based on a deep set of interviews with the individual in person. And then I interview up to 10 people around them, because what you say about yourself and what other people say about you may not be the same. And my favorite example of this is a leader who had completely underestimated himself, so the opposite problem. Often leaders maybe overestimate their talents and abilities. But this leader underestimated himself. He is the CEO of a business in Kenya. It's an ethical carbon credits company. The board had fallen out with the CEO and founder and thrown him out.

So the CFO replaced the founder and CEO and he became CEO. That founder was a huge personality. Often with founders, the founder's narrative and the business narrative are intertwined. The CFO had a huge challenge in replacing this really big ebullient personality. And also, he was a backroom guy. He just wasn't comfortable with being front. And he was even doing things like sending his head of comms into media interviews instead of himself. And the board said, this has to stop, you need to talk to Charlotte. And by going through the Reputation 360 program with him, I was able to show him that the people around him saw him as an innovator not just in the business, but for their industry.

So at the time I worked with him, he had 300 followers on LinkedIn and was very shy. He now has over 10,000 followers and is regarded as a thought leader in this industry because the people he trusted had said to him, you're an innovator, and if you're not speaking out, if you're not sharing your experience and your expertise, you're doing a disservice to our entire industry. And when he saw that, there was a click in his brain. And he now owns his reputation. He manages that he speaks to the media. He writes beautifully. And it's been such a satisfying process for me to see that evolution, because at some point I drop off. I don't stay on and ghost write. I drop off. And he is now fully empowered. And as a coach, it's a huge sense of satisfaction for me.

I think you also asked about what things people should soften and what they should enhance. So one of the things I listen very hard for when I'm doing those in-depth interviews is I'm listening for amazing stories and I'm listening for the moment where somebody lights up from the inside. And I think this is where my journalistic training, because my first gig out of university was as a journalist, I'm really watching very closely for those stories. And then I'm able at the end of the process in the reputation report that I give my clients to reflect back to them:

This story is a beautiful one that you tell, not just because it has value on its own as a story, but it can also support your business strategy in these different ways. And the value of stories, and I know that Frank Wolf at Staffbase talks about stories a lot. Stories build together to create narratives, narratives build together to create reputations, but the other thing about story is that people don't forget them.

You know, you can quote an amazing stat, it's gone out of my head in an hour, but you tell me an amazing story and that stays with me for life. So I really do encourage my clients to really flex on telling stories. And I think I help by ensuring that they see that their stories have validity, because people sometimes say to me, oh, but who wants to know that I could ski on black slopes when I was seven? Well actually, that shows resilience, that shows all kinds of skills that you have. So I'm always looking for those stories that support business strategy that people can tell really easily.

Brian Tomlinson: That's great. Let's double click on something that you said around halfway through there. And that has to do with visibility. So that sounded to me as if he was a leader who loved his work but didn't want to be in the spotlight. And I know for myself and also for a lot of other leaders who I speak to, that's exactly the case. That's exactly the case that they find themselves in. It's like, oh, you know what? I love my work, but when it's done, I just want to move on. I don't necessarily need to be in the spotlight. And this brings up the topic of visibility. Why is visibility so important, particularly for emerging leaders, but obviously also for founders, for CEOs, et cetera? Maybe you can touch on that and why that's such a key part of reputation as well.

Charlotte Otter: Yeah I mean there's the standard answer, which is reputation matters, so that if you come from a diverse background or a diverse identity and you see someone who looks or speaks, or behaves like you in a position of leadership, that opens up possibility. But what I'm also seeing is that for leaders from diverse backgrounds and identities, that there's so much power in their reputation, so much more than representation, because by reflecting on their success, they show the rest of society that people like them can succeed and can lead. So they're actually building very strong bridges for the generations that follow.

A lot of people are uncomfortable. They see LinkedIn or being on social media as self-promotion. And what I try to say is you're actually building a community. By sharing your expertise, you're helping other people to learn, you're showing other people the path, and you're building the bridges. But I also think for founders, for CEOs, everybody's looking for investment, everybody's looking to engage and energize employees. Everyone's hoping they'll get some media attention. Maybe they're hoping they're going to get invited onto podiums and keynotes.

Your perspective matters. So it's not just about showing up on LinkedIn and saying, "I attended this wonderful event and I met these three people." It's what did you learn? People are so hungry for perspectives, they're hungry for insights. Particularly now, the more AI-generated, bland, anodyne content that we have, people are hungry for maybe a slightly controversial take, a fresh perspective, an insight that makes us think, "Hey, I haven't thought of it that way before." We're so hungry for that. And I think that leaders are doing both themselves and their communities a disservice if they're not sharing those insights that they have.

Brian Tomlinson: Couldn't agree more. I think let's take that different perspective. What's your take on personal branding? I know we talked about this before. It's become such a thing even though it's been here forever. It's become such a big thing, but I know you have a unique take on personal branding. Maybe tell us a little bit of what that is.

Charlotte Otter: So the language I use is around reputation and reputation management because I've been immersed in it for so long and I've studied it. And one of the things that came up for me as I was studying reputation comes out of this brilliant book called "The Reputation Game," which is by Rupert Younger who runs the Center for Reputation at Oxford University. And in the book, he says your reputation is made up of three things: your narratives, your behaviors, and your networks. And your personal brand is the starting point within your narratives.

I think that people who are highly in touch with themselves, have done the self-knowledge work, maybe have already had coaching, maybe have already had some therapy, maybe don't need to have personal branding because they already know themselves well enough and maybe they have a sense of their stories. But I think that personal branding has a valid role deep inside the narrative section of narratives, behaviors, and networks. The challenge comes, and this is where a reputation can fall apart, when words, narratives, and behaviors don't match. And that's a huge issue for CEOs, for MDs, and their businesses. And  I cite a couple of examples of that in the book where the fallout is just extreme.

Brian Tomlinson: I think that's absolutely a big thing. Something you talk about in the book is having that authenticity and making sure that these two things match. Maybe you can go through each of those pillars, each of those elements of reputation. I think you touched on narrative already, but what about behavior and what about networks? Because I think those are sometimes the parts that people may not really have in view when they think about personal branding and reputation. Behavior, somewhat, but I think network is something that's also typically left to the side. Maybe let's dig into those a little bit.

Charlotte Otter: Yeah, so behavior comes out of deep self-knowledge. And one of the things that came up for me when I was studying, I did an MSc in change leadership, and it was the thesis in that course that led to the book. And one of the things that I learned in the change leadership course is the difference between single-loop and double-loop learners. So single-loop learners, leaders, see a problem, throw resources at the problem, fix the problem. Double-loop learners see the problem, fix the problem, because often it's a crisis, we need to get it fixed quickly, but then say, what role did I play in causing that problem? And what can I do in future to make sure that doesn't happen again?

That is a behavior that I'm finding very common amongst the new leaders who I interviewed, and in my personal experience of leaders at a global technology company, was often missing. Maybe because they were so incredibly busy, they went from one crisis to the next, they didn't have time to reflect, or they didn't want to reflect because that is vulnerability when you have to open yourself up and go, what did I do wrong here? And even more vulnerable, ask your team members to give you feedback.

So I think leaders who are double-loop learners, who are prepared to accept or face up to maybe what their role was, the role or their behavior in causing the problem, are much more likely to be inspiring leaders. Because if your leader is being vulnerable in front of you and said, "We had this thing, I'm starting to realize that my behavior played a role here, what do you think?" You're so much more likely to trust, you're so much more likely to follow, you're so much more likely to be all in the next time there's a crisis.

So the behavior, the behavioral side of it can be very, very subtle, but it's a leader who's prepared to learn about themselves. And as I said, when there's that gap between words and behavior, that is the absolute trust gap, that's where reputation fails. So it's a very uncomfortable and dangerous place for leaders. 

Brian Tomlinson: Maybe a quick question before you go into network, sorry. Why do you think it's so hard for us to take that time to reflect and to know ourselves?

Charlotte Otter: I think it's too vulnerable. I think it goes to imposter syndrome. People, even the most senior leaders at the biggest companies around the world, probably in their quiet moments think, how the hell did I get here? And how the hell am I earning this huge salary? And so they construct a persona of perfection, they construct a persona that never makes a mistake. And it's just incredibly vulnerable and incredibly threatening to that persona to admit that there's a crack.

Brian Tomlinson: Yeah, that does make sense. But I find it fascinating though, because like you said, it's the foundation of everything. And I know we'll go on to networks now, but if we look at . . . and this is what I really, really love about your perspective, is that knowing yourself and the self-knowledge, the self-awareness is foundational to everything else. Because like you said, once you know who you are, you're comfortable in even making decisions that might not be popular, because you know that these align with my values. So I think that's really brilliant for that to be such the foundation.

But sorry, I just wanted to double click on that, given the fact that it's something that a lot of leaders don't do. And a lot of times, they play it off that, "Oh, I don't have time." Right and like you said, it's such a foundational element of who you are as a person, who you are as a leader, and ultimately, if you're a founder, who your company is. So it's really crucial that leaders take that time to do that, to figure that out. On to networks then. Tell us about networks and how networks play a part in building that reputation.

Charlotte Otter: So your reputation is what people say about you when you're not in the room. And your integrity is how you behave when nobody else is in the room. I really think that reputation and integrity are incredibly close. And so is trust, actually, the third element. You can't control what people say about you. You can influence it. So you influence it by making sure that your words and your behaviors match, that you act according to your values, but you also influence it by showing up. So it goes back to having those interesting perspectives, having those insights, and sharing them.

You know I think about CEOs who are sitting on a wealth of 30, 35 years' experience and go, "Oh, no, I hate self-promotion. Don't put me on social media." But imagine the lessons that emerging leaders could be learning from those people if they did a weekly video and talked about some things that went wrong and what they learned from that. Just that generosity of sharing experience really can help a network.

So networks are social media, obviously, but also, it can also be your personal networks, your family, your friends, your alumni associations, your industry bodies. And it is, it's what people say about you when you're not around or how people are prepared to show up for you when there is a crisis. And this goes to something in Frank's book, "The Narrative Age," which I found incredible, which is this idea of the narrative moat. So Frank says, you tell stories to build narratives and narratives build your strategy, and those build your reputation. The more stories you tell about yourself and your business, the more narratives that you create, you build a moat of trust and you build a moat of protection so that when crisis hits, your network already know you and trust you.

So if you're a CEO that nobody's ever heard of, and something terrible happens, a crisis hits in your company, how do people know they should trust you? How do people know who you are when you turn up and go, "Oh, sorry, that shouldn't have happened. Really sorry that those milk products went out when they shouldn't have"? But if people already know who you are, they understand your values, they've heard your stories, they believe in you, when you turn up to apologize when crisis hits, because it always hits in business, there's no business that doesn't experience crisis, people are more likely to trust you.

Brian Tomlinson: Yeah absolutely. And I think that underlining of trust is the big part. So creating that moat, like you said, that area of protection truly is critical.

Charlotte Otter: Yes, it really is. And one of my CEO interviewees said it in a different way to Frank. He said he works on his reputation between five and six hours a week. And this is a busy human being running a huge business. And he said he does it because it's vitamins, not aspirin. He is building a healthy immune system. He's building a system of trust in his different audiences, and so that he doesn't need to rely on aspirin when the crisis hits.

Brian Tomlinson: Yeah it's proactive, right? When I read that part of the book, I was like, oh, I need to share this with our . . . because we build up a thought leadership program. And the hardest thing about any thought leadership program is actually getting people to be active. 

Charlotte Otter: Yes.

Brian Tomlinson: Right? And I thought, ah, this might be actually a really good story to share, to potentially have people rewire their brains a little bit about why should I be posting on LinkedIn? Because you have the tendency for someone to say, "You know what? I posted four times and nothing happened." And I love when you give it that metaphor of well, why do you take your vitamins every day? You keep doing these good things so that you can have a better long-term viability and vitality. And it's exactly the same thing in this case of business.

Charlotte Otter: Yeah, it absolutely is. And I think that Frank's narrative moat and this vitamins versus aspirins are just two brilliant metaphors for the same thing, which is: tell your stories, build trust, let your audiences, wherever they are, internal, external, know who you are, see you as a human being so that if and when something bad happens, and it usually does, - I've lived through many crises in corporate communications - people know who you are as a human being. And your business recovery will probably be faster.

Brian Tomlinson: Yeah, absolutely.

Charlotte Otter: And if I may say, Brian, sorry, if I might just say, this also goes for individuals. The job market is stressful at the moment. None of us can say I'm going to be in the same job in five years time. Nobody can confidently predict that. So to individuals who are in roles now, I'm also saying, take your vitamins, build your narrative moat now, because there's going to probably come a moment where you get some form of surprise, horrible or not, but a change happens, and the network outside your company knows who you are.

And I didn't do this. I was so busy at SAP building everybody else's reputation, I completely forgot about my own. And it's taken me three years since leaving corporate. I'm still working on it, I'll probably be working on it always, but I've had to completely build a network. I've had to completely tell my stories and I've had to show up in a trusted way and behaviorally in a consistent way so that people see who I am. And it's been really hard work. I sometimes look back on my time as a leader and think, why weren't I joining professional organizations? Why wasn't I posting more on LinkedIn and talking about my experience? Yes, time was an issue, but actually it was an investment in myself that I wasn't making.

Brian Tomlinson: I totally agree with you. A couple of years ago, before I joined Staffbase, I found myself in that position. And that regret was evident that I'd spent years before, I'd spent so much time really being active. And then there came this time where I was like, oh, it's too busy. Kids, the pandemic, work, there was so many excuses why I wasn't as active in building that network, staying active.

And when the time came, a time of crisis, as we would say in your career, it was like, oh, oops, guess I need to do that again. So I absolutely love that piece of advice. Maybe let's make that our next question. How do you go about building a reputation? What are the steps someone should take? And this could be an emerging leader. This could be a CEO. If you could just quickly break it down, what are the steps to building out an incredible reputation?

Charlotte Otter: Yeah, I think if we work backwards, we'll start with the network. So find your professional associations, show up in your alumni organizations, connect with people and connect not to get something. Connect to give something or connect to understand. And connecting to understand was what I did for my first 18 months out of corporate. I just found interesting people on LinkedIn who I thought had an interesting perspective or an insight. I just said to them, I'd love to learn more about what you do. So connect to understand, not to get something.

I think a lot of people leave corporate, set themselves up as a consultant, and then they're like, now I want to sell you my services. I completely avoided doing that. So work hard on the networks. Tell your stories. I'm still fighting with this. You know I struggle to be vulnerable out in the world. I mean I'm an old school blogger from the WordPress days. I used to blog about my children. And then I thought, oh, I'm uncomfortable with this.

So there's always a tension for all of us about how much do we say, how much don't we say, how opinionated are we, are we not. But I would say, pick three topics that you're fascinated by and build your stories around those. So for me, it's leadership, it's reputation, and it's great communication. So pick three topics where you're comfortable. Find the other thought leaders in those topics. Show up as a human on their posts. That's another form of giving. Don't just broadcast. Don't just spray and pray. Connect with other human beings. And one of the things I say to my clients who are just starting out on social media and feel nervous about it, I say, for the first three months, just comment.Brian Tomlinson: Yeah.

Charlotte Otter: Just practice engaging. Because the LinkedIn algorithm loves connection. And if somebody has made the effort to write a great post and there's something in that post that makes your brain go, "Hey, that was interesting," take two minutes to tell the person what you liked about their post. And then I say to my clients, take notes because if you've written a comment that's five lines long, you obviously care about that. So take a note, that's a post for you in the future. So just show up as a human and connect. And then as you're doing that connecting, where your passions lie will start to become obvious to you, if they aren't already.

Brian Tomlinson: I love it. I'm happy we have this recorded because I tell so many people, if you want to build up on LinkedIn . . . because everybody's like, what do I post? How many times do I need to post? Just find conversations, jump in, leave thoughtful comments, not cool or very shallow stuff like that, but leave a thoughtful comment. And that will do so much more for you than the posts that you spend forever trying to create. And, just like you said, it also creates content for you on the backend because those same posts, if it resonates with people, then it might work as a post. So I'm so happy that you got that out and we have it recorded. Everybody can be able to listen to that. I love that it's such a step-by-step.

Charlotte Otter: Yeah and Brian, you know, you're helping others when you do that. And that's the inspiration for me. You know a lot of my work on social media is about building a community. And if somebody has taken the effort to write a really beautiful post and there's something in there that's a light bulb for me, I always make sure to tell them. And LinkedIn is now starting to give you impressions on your own comments. So cou can actually see which of your comments are landing, which is also really useful feedback.

Brian Tomlinson: It's a sign right? I think that was such a perfect sign to be able to see, oh, maybe that might be important. If LinkedIn actually takes the time to show that to me, that must be a key indicator.

Charlotte Otter: Yes, for sure.

Brian Tomlinson: Just as we look to wind up, let's touch on your years of expertise in comms. Given that we are in this leadership crisis and how key communicators are within an organization, what do you think is the best way for comms to prove their value and the impact that they have on the organization? Because I think being communicators, we know how crucial these roles are in delivering business impact. But traditionally, it hasn't been easy to measure it. It's not as easy as marketing to say, oh, here are the numbers. What do you think are some of the ways that communicators can do a better job of proving their value and their impact to the organization?

Charlotte Otter: Yeah, I mean it's the age-old question for communicators, isn't it? And one of the things I looked into in the thesis that led to the book was, how did the CEO and the head of comms create trust to manage and mitigate reputational risk? And the trust-building qualities that the CEO has to embody and the CCO have to embody are actually completely different. But I'll focus on comms, seeing you asked.

Crucially is competence at the job. You have to be able to prosecute the key parts of being a communicator. Another huge thing that came up in my interviews and obviously also through my experience is being courageous. So communicators manage their relationships with the C-suite extremely thoughtfully. That came up in my interviews. It's almost a form of emotional labor, which is why I say it's really important for that trust to be built for the head of comms to report directly to the CEO, because if they are reporting through another member of the C-suite, then they're doing two sets of emotional labor, which is really onerous on comms, but having the courage to step up and say when you think something is a problem.

Now, one of my interviewees said that he is the head of comms at a huge global tourist destination in Southern Africa. And he said he has to be extremely cautious about not crying wolf, because then he's going to be the guy that always shouts and screams and nobody takes him seriously. So there has to be, and there is amongst communicators, incredible thoughtfulness when to flag something.

And then having the courage to carry it through, and to always advise, remembering that the business pays your salary, not the CEO. So what I also saw is when the CEO and the head of comms get too close, there's the threat of bias, because then you become invested in the human being and not in the business. So I think it's really important to always remember the business pays your salary, not that individual.

Brian Tomlinson: You had a quote in the book that spoke exactly to that that I really liked as well, that I believe this head of comms really said to the CEO. I don't remember the quote word for word, but basically there's this separation of who you are and the business and my job is to make the best decision and give the best advice for the business. So I found that really thoughtful, because a lot of times, I think there's this pressure that comes, because theoretically, you're advising your boss. 

Charlotte Otter: Yes.

Brian Tomlinson: And when hierarchy is involved, that tends to put people in a position where they feel as if they can't be able to tell the truth. And I find that a very unique part of an organization that the communicator has, that you just have to be honest, because it's crucial.

Charlotte Otter: Yeah, you do. I think that same interviewee, he also said to me, said, I am the only . . . he also happened to be on the C-suite, but he said, I am the only person in the C-suite who is 100% responsible for reputation. So he is thinking of reputation every second of every working day. It's his responsibility, if he's prosecuting his job correctly, to be saying to the CEO or the other members of the C-suite, "Hey this is reputational, you need to think about this before you action something." And so it goes back to leadership. I think that really great communicators have deep values, they have deep self-knowledge, they have excellent business acumen, and they have incredible courage.

Brian Tomlinson: I think that's a great way to end on this one. I can't think of a better description of what a new leader needs to have, the traits that a new leader needs to have. I think you hit the nail on the head right there. I think let's call it a day. Thank you so much, Charlotte, for joining us. Really great having this conversation. I think a lot of communicators and leaders will get a ton out of this as well. Where can people find you?

Charlotte Otter: Thanks, Brian. It's been lovely chatting to you today. People can find me on charlottetotter.com. They can find me on Substack. I have a blog called Speech Bubbles. I also have a podcast called Speech Bubbles, or they can find me on LinkedIn.

Brian Tomlinson: Amazing. And everyone, definitely go pick up "We Need New Leaders." Amazing read if you are a leader or a communicator. Definitely a must read. And thanks a lot. I'm Brian Tomlinson and this has been the Aspire to Inspire Podcast. Have a great one.